Catering on Cross Country services - early/mid 80s

[nw1]

Just looking at the famous Table 51 in the goldmine that is Timetable World's full 1982 BR timetable.

It's revealing something which in retrospect seems surprising - namely a good number of Cross Country services, particularly on the Reading route, did not appear to have catering.

Was this actually the case? In particular I notice a discrepancy between the station departure boards which clearly showed the Portsmouth-Manchester (1105 that year) having a cold buffet, yet in Table 51 it's buffetless.

Incidentally, assuming the Reading-Birmingham route is still hourly, it appears that there were more trains from Reading-Birmingham during the period 0630-1730 in 1982 than there are currently, with 12 trains in those 11 hours. Longer trains too of course. (Most years of the 80s, however, there were hours with gaps at Reading...)

 

[30907]

Even then the GBTT wasn't entirely accurate (!) - for example the Newcastle-Poole shows a buffet but not the return working.

The extras above hourly were the two Brightons - but this was ICXC in (short-lived, as you say) expansionist mode.

 

[Helvellyn]

I certainly recall station posters in the mid-1980s for the InterCity CrossCountry Grill, offering freshly cooked food in the Restaurant Buffet. This would have been the 'Scot' services from Edinburgh*/Glasgow to Penzance (Cornish Scot), Plymouth (Devon Scot), Poole (Wessex Scot) and Brighton (Sussex Scot), which all operated via the West Coast. There was also the Dorset Scot to Poole via the East Coast, which was also loco-hauled with a Restaurant-Buffet.

* Edinburgh portion went to Aberdeen.

 

[hexagon789]

Was this actually the case? In particular I notice a discrepancy between the station departure boards which clearly showed the Portsmouth-Manchester (1105 that year) having a cold buffet, yet in Table 51 it's buffetless

The PTM gives the formation as:

2 TSO-FK-3 TSO-NEA

So no catering vehicle

Even then the GBTT wasn't entirely accurate (!) - for example the Newcastle-Poole shows a buffet but not the return working.

Formation has an RB booked in the 0942 Poole-Newcastle. I suspect there may be an error therefore especially as the equivalent service in 1983, by then 0940 off Poole, has a buffet service to Newcastle.

 

[Big Jumby 74]

namely a good number of Cross Country services, particularly on the Reading route, did not appear to have catering.

This is from the CWN for June 81 to May 82.

Weekdays, Northbound:
0625 Poole-Brum New St conveyed an RMB.
0942 Poole-Manchester conveyed an RMB.
1135 Poole to Newcastle conveyed an RBR.
1455 Bournemouth-Lime St conveyed an RMB.

Weekdays, Southbound:
0720 Lime St-Poole conveyed an RMB, ECS to Bournemouth for 1455.
0920 Manchester-Poole (train to Weymouth FO until 2/10) conveyed an RMB.
0755 Newcastle-Poole conveyed an RBR
1520 Lime St-Poole conveyed an RMB.

Saturdays, Northbound:
0638 Poole-New St conveyed an RMB (train ran From 10/10)
0842 Poole-Lime St conveyed an RMB (train ran until 3/10)
0909 Weymouth (until 3/10)/0942 Poole-Manchester (from 10/10) conveyed an RMB
1140 Poole-Newcastle conveyed an RBR
1455 Bournemouth-Lime St conveyed an RMB

Saturdays, Southbound
0720 Lime St-Poole conveyed an RMB, ECS to Bournemouth for 1455.
0920 Manchester-Poole conveyed an RMB
0755 Newcastle-Poole conveyed an RBR
1520 Lime St-Poole conveyed an RMB

Sundays, Northbound:
1238 Poole-Newcastle conveyed an RBR
1642 Poole-Lime St conveyed an RMB

Sundays, Southbound:
1550 Lime St-Poole conveyed an RMB
1440 Newcastle-Poole conveyed an RBR

I assume they were all booked to be staffed, although if that was throughout?

 

[hexagon789]

This is from the CWN for June 81 to May 82.

Weekdays, Northbound:
0625 Poole-Brum New St conveyed an RMB.
0942 Poole-Manchester conveyed an RMB.
1135 Poole to Newcastle conveyed an RBR.
1455 Bournemouth-Lime St conveyed an RMB.

Weekdays, Southbound:
0720 Lime St-Poole conveyed an RMB, ECS to Bournemouth for 1455.
0920 Manchester-Poole (train to Weymouth FO until 2/10) conveyed an RMB.
0755 Newcastle-Poole conveyed an RBR
1520 Lime St-Poole conveyed an RMB.

Saturdays, Northbound:
0638 Poole-New St conveyed an RMB (train ran From 10/10)
0842 Poole-Lime St conveyed an RMB (train ran until 3/10)
0909 Weymouth (until 3/10)/0942 Poole-Manchester (from 10/10) conveyed an RMB
1140 Poole-Newcastle conveyed an RBR
1455 Bournemouth-Lime St conveyed an RMB

Saturdays, Southbound
0720 Lime St-Poole conveyed an RMB, ECS to Bournemouth for 1455.
0920 Manchester-Poole conveyed an RMB
0755 Newcastle-Poole conveyed an RBR
1520 Lime St-Poole conveyed an RMB

Sundays, Northbound:
1238 Poole-Newcastle conveyed an RBR
1642 Poole-Lime St conveyed an RMB

Sundays, Southbound:
1550 Lime St-Poole conveyed an RMB
1440 Newcastle-Poole conveyed an RBR

I assume they were all booked to be staffed, although if that was throughout?

The PTMs usually noted if catering vehicles were staffed and between which points. Ie if not mentioned it would be assumed they were staffed throughout.

For example looking at the May 1982 LMR PTM, the 0740 Penzance-Liverpool conveyed an RBR and the notes say - "unstaffed to Plymouth".

 

[Big Jumby 74]

The Portsmouth train in the above CWN is shown as a WO service, 3/6 to 17/6 and 9/9 to 30/9 only, so some what short lived for that period. Shown as running to Newcastle. Formed loco/1 NAV/5 SK/1 BSK/4 SK, and similarly in the reverse direction. The inbound working to form Wednesdays Northbound run was a 16+42 ECS from Margate to Fratton on TO, and the Southbound (0720) Newcastle to Pompey on WO, remained on Fratton until it worked an 05+40 ECS to Eastbourne on Saturdays, or so it says!

 

[Gloster]

The Portsmouth train in the above CWN is shown as a WO service, 3/6 to 17/6 and 9/9 to 30/9 only, so some what short lived for that period. Shown as running to Newcastle. Formed loco/1 NAV/5 SK/1 BSK/4 SK, and similarly in the reverse direction. The inbound working to form Wednesdays Northbound run was a 16+42 ECS from Margate to Fratton on TO, and the Southbound (0720) Newcastle to Pompey on WO, remained on Fratton until it worked an 05+40 ECS to Eastbourne on Saturdays, or so it says!

I think that these were ‘Saga Specials’ chartered by the Saga organisation for elderly holiday makers. I think they mostly used the sets that were mainly intended for Summer Saturday reliefs, on which the catering provision was (at best, if I remember correctly) just a trolley.

 

[nw1]

The Portsmouth train in the above CWN is shown as a WO service, 3/6 to 17/6 and 9/9 to 30/9 only, so some what short lived for that period. Shown as running to Newcastle. Formed loco/1 NAV/5 SK/1 BSK/4 SK, and similarly in the reverse direction. The inbound working to form Wednesdays Northbound run was a 16+42 ECS from Margate to Fratton on TO, and the Southbound (0720) Newcastle to Pompey on WO, remained on Fratton until it worked an 05+40 ECS to Eastbourne on Saturdays, or so it says!

This sounds like the Saga Special, which was different. The one I'm thinking of is the 1105 Mon-Sat all year Portsmouth Harbour-Manchester Piccadilly in the 1982/83 timetable.

I definitely recall it having a 'microbuffet' as I remember seeing it (a 'microbuffet' in a non-aircon Mk-II coach, as a lot of the XCs did). I didn't use it but do remember the departure boards in Guildford indicated it as having a buffet.

Only the 'premium' XCs (the Poole-Newcastle and the slightly-later 'Wessex Scot' Poole-Glasgow and Edinburgh) appeared to have a dedicated buffet coach.

I am surprised so few XC services (the above service was more than 5.5 hours end-to-end) would have catering, particular in an era in which on-train catering was widely available - which makes me think that it was an error in the timetable. Could be wrong though.

I think that these were ‘Saga Specials’ chartered by the Saga organisation for elderly holiday makers.

Or not-so-elderly looking at the age range, more like middle-adulthood upwards!

 

[Rescars]

IIRC the Saga Special trolleys were staffed by Travellers Fare refreshment room staff and not by regular on-train catering crews.

 

[GS250]

I seem to recall it was pretty random back in the day. Some services advertised with a buffet car either didn't have one in the formation, or was present but unstaffed. Conversely, an apparently foodless journey could sometimes surprise everyone onboard by having a fully stocked catering vehicle offering hot and cold food. I guess it was just typical of the end of that era where it was all a bit random? XC seemed by far the most 'made up on the day' when it came to what was on offer.

 

[Falcon1200]

I travelled between Oxford and Reading in the 1980-84 period and recall the Cross-Country trains as mostly having an RMB in the formation, a most efficient means of providing catering with only one staff member required; Such vehicles remain popular on preserved railways today !

 

[Rescars]

I seem to recall it was pretty random back in the day. Some services advertised with a buffet car either didn't have one in the formation, or was present but unstaffed. Conversely, an apparently foodless journey could sometimes surprise everyone onboard by having a fully stocked catering vehicle offering hot and cold food. I guess it was just typical of the end of that era where it was all a bit random? XC seemed by far the most 'made up on the day' when it came to what was on offer.

And sometimes the stationary "trolley" was located in the brake, even if there was a locked buffet car in the consist.

I travelled between Oxford and Reading in the 1980-84 period and recall the Cross-Country trains as mostly having an RMB in the formation, a most efficient means of providing catering with only one staff member required; Such vehicles remain popular on preserved railways today !

It was of course quite possible to run a buffet single handed from an RBR or RBK - and this was normal practice on services where these vehicles were in the consist. There was a problem with the RMB on longer journeys in that some stores had to be carried in a locked cupboard off the vestibule. If these stores were needed en route, then the buffet had either to be left unattended or be locked whilst the stores were being collected. These alternatives were either unwise or unpopular - especially on a crowded train! Not so much of a problem in preservation as the train normally terminates before replenishment becomes necessary.

 

[mike57]

I certainly recall station posters in the mid-1980s for the InterCity CrossCountry Grill, offering freshly cooked food in the Restaurant Buffet. This would have been the 'Scot' services from Edinburgh*/Glasgow to Penzance (Cornish Scot), Plymouth (Devon Scot), Poole (Wessex Scot) and Brighton (Sussex Scot), which all operated via the West Coast. There was also the Dorset Scot to Poole via the East Coast, which was also loco-hauled with a Restaurant-Buffet.

* Edinburgh portion went to Aberdeen.

I used these services a few times in the early to mid 80's, seem to remember getting a hot meal on the way back from Cheltenham a couple of times. Cant remember exact menu, but certainly not on the scale of ECML catering at that time. Grilled Gammon come to mind on one occasion, certainly better than arriving home late and tired and having to start cooking.

 

[nw1]

I travelled between Oxford and Reading in the 1980-84 period and recall the Cross-Country trains as mostly having an RMB in the formation, a most efficient means of providing catering with only one staff member required; Such vehicles remain popular on preserved railways today !

So when we talk about 'RMB' etc what do we mean?

What I remember (on the Reading route, from the May 1982 - May 1986 timetables, inclusive) is:
- 'Microbuffets' (on most XC journeys)
- Dedicated buffet cars (on the more premium services such as Poole-Newcastle or Poole-Glasgow/Edinburgh)

Sorry if this is a silly question!

Thanks!

 

[LowLevel]

So when we talk about 'RMB' etc what do we mean?

What I remember (on the Reading route, from the May 1982 - May 1986 timetables, inclusive) is:
- 'Microbuffets' (on most XC journeys)
- Dedicated buffet cars (on the more premium services such as Poole-Newcastle or Poole-Glasgow/Edinburgh)

Sorry if this is a silly question!

Thanks!

An RMB is an 18xx series purpose built miniature buffet coach - basically a TSO with the middle seating bays replaced with a proper buffet counter with boiler, store cupboard and bar/circulating area. No cooking facilities unless some were later modified with microwaves. See here: https://www.flickr.com/photos/keith-v/25255901972

An RB(R) is a 16xx/19xx series restaurant car fitted with a kitchen, bar, and free standing seats. It can do full hot meals.
See here:

Mk1 - RBR 19xx

1909 Washford 07/10/07

coaches-library.weebly.com

A micro buffet is one of various conversions of regular carriages of mk1 or mk2 varieties, generally BSO to have a seating bay converted to a buffet counter
See here:

Brake Standard Open (Micro-Buffet) - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

The RFOs were the mk2f first open buffet conversions in the late 80s that replaced the mk1 vehicles on Cross Country services and lasted until the end of loco hauled with Virgin XC.

 

[Jim Jehosofat]

I think that these were ‘Saga Specials’ chartered by the Saga organisation for elderly holiday makers. I think they mostly used the sets that were mainly intended for Summer Saturday reliefs, on which the catering provision was (at best, if I remember correctly) just a trolley.

Good old SAGA. I'm sure it stood for Send All Grannies Away!

 

[Big Jumby 74]

So when we talk about 'RMB' etc what do we mean?

What I remember (on the Reading route, from the May 1982 - May 1986 timetables, inclusive) is:
- 'Microbuffets' (on most XC journeys)
- Dedicated buffet cars (on the more premium services such as Poole-Newcastle or Poole-Glasgow/Edinburgh)

Sorry if this is a silly question!

Thanks!

Not at all, if you don't ask etc! Here's a scan from the Appendix to Carriage Workings (used in association with the CWN's) back in the day. Of the RMB's we had on the Southern, S1872 and S1873 were probably the most useful as they were wired to run with TC stock, and if memory is correct one of them ran as part of the short lived 8 VAB (other seven vehicles from Vep's 7741 & 7742 I think).

 

[nw1]

Not at all, if you don't ask etc! Here's a scan from the Appendix to Carriage Workings (used in association with the CWN's) back in the day. Of the RMB's we had on the Southern, S1872 and S1873 were probably the most useful as they were wired to run with TC stock, and if memory is correct one of them ran as part of the short lived 8 VAB (other seven vehicles from Vep's 7741 & 7742 I think).

OK - many thanks for this!

 

[Gloster]

Not at all, if you don't ask etc! Here's a scan from the Appendix to Carriage Workings (used in association with the CWN's) back in the day. Of the RMB's we had on the Southern, S1872 and S1873 were probably the most useful as they were wired to run with TC stock, and if memory is correct one of them ran as part of the short lived 8 VAB (other seven vehicles from Vep's 7741 & 7742 I think).

According to Keith Parkin’s HMRS book on Mark 1s, RB S1758 and S1759 were the original conversions. 1758 was only a limited conversion, but 1759 was the full one and it was the vehicle in the 8-VAB. Both were transferred away to the LMR around 1975 and replaced by S1872 and 1873.

 

[Big Jumby 74]

but 1759 was the full one and it was the vehicle in the 8-VAB

Yes, on checking the 1973 Appendix you are indeed correct. I've learnt something new! Looks like there were 14 RB's on the SR at that time, 1759 clearly shown as being part of the 8 Vab, the others being mostly loose vehicles except 1765 & 1766 which formed part of the two 6 RB Sets, 140 & 141.
By 1975 the RB count was down to 9 in total, including 1759 (now quote: 'Modified for running with Vep units') and 1765/6 still allocated as per 1973, but they had been joined by RMB's 1806, 1807, 1822, and 72/73 as you say. Thank you.

 

[Rescars]

These diagrams show the internal layout of the RBs very well. The solid wall separating the bar/pantry from the kitchen neatly shows why single staffed buffets couldn't offer hot food. All the grills and stoves were in the kitchen. Ideal for restaurant car service into the adjoining saloon, but decidedly inconvenient for the occasional toastie!