Caught today fare evading London Victoria-Greenhithe

[caughttoday]

If they haven’t prosecuted you by now they are out of time. Don’t let them talk you into settling if that’s the case, as there is nothing to settle.

Sorry, you mean for me to refuse if they try to prosecute or ask for settlement at this stage?

Is that even possible or am I allowed to do that?

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Sorry, you mean for me to refuse if they try to prosecute or ask for settlement at this stage?

Is that even possible or am I allowed to do that?

The point of you agreeing to an out of court settlement is that you pay the railway money, and in ret they agree not to prosecute you.

But practically speaking, the railway can only prosecute if they tell the courts that they are going to do this within six months of the incident. The court might then take a few weeks to let you know about the prosecution (by sending you a summons or an SJPN).

But if the railway have run out of time to start a prosecution, then there’s no need to pay them to make sure they don’t prosecute you.

So if the first you hear about a prosecution is well after six months have passed then it’s worth checking if the prosecution is in fact in time. Don’t ignore it - but if it’s out ofti and you tell the court that, then it should go away.

If the first you hear is an offer to settle out of court and more than six months have passed, then you don’t need to pay. In my view, it would be sensible to respond to say that they are out of time for a prosecution so you don’t need to pay.

 

[caughttoday]

The point of you agreeing to an out of court settlement is that you pay the railway money, and in ret they agree not to prosecute you.

But practically speaking, the railway can only prosecute if they tell the courts that they are going to do this within six months of the incident. The court might then take a few weeks to let you know about the prosecution (by sending you a summons or an SJPN).

But if the railway have run out of time to start a prosecution, then there’s no need to pay them to make sure they don’t prosecute you.

So if the first you hear about a prosecution is well after six months have passed then it’s worth checking if the prosecution is in fact in time. Don’t ignore it - but if it’s out ofti and you tell the court that, then it should go away.

If the first you hear is an offer to settle out of court and more than six months have passed, then you don’t need to pay. In my view, it would be sensible to respond to say that they are out of time for a prosecution so you don’t need to pay.

Okay. So I sent them an email yesterday asking for an update about my case. If my case was actually “dormant” and me sending them an email has woken that up, I’m thinking of this possible scenarios?

1. They reply with offer of an out of court settlement.

2. Proceed to prosecute me.

With scenario 1, can I say that I won’t pay because it’s past 6 months and they are out of time?

With scenario 2, do I wait for the prosecution summons, then ask if this is still in time? But it’s over 6 months, so how would I know if this is in time?

Sorry I’m just getting more confused.

But thank you for explaining.

 

[ikcdab]

Then I think that's all you can do for now. Just wait and see what happens.
I haven't read the whole thread, but is it possible that you have been prosecuted in your absence and emails have gone into spam or letters have gone to old or wrong addresses?

 

[caughttoday]

Then I think that's all you can do for now. Just wait and see what happens.
I haven't read the whole thread, but is it possible that you have been prosecuted in your absence and emails have gone into spam or letters have gone to old or wrong addresses?

I called the magistrates office. Definitely no case under my name, triple checked with the guy, repeated my name several times and spelled with phonetics to get it correctly. And I asked him if this is the central data base, and confirmed that any case, wherever branch it may be, they can see it.

Spam emails I have checked. Not regularly, but then again, if I didn’t reply to any of their emails then they would have prosecuted me by now (and the magistrates call would have confirmed this in the first instance)?

I don’t think any old address would be relevant as I didn’t give it to them, only the correct one and the one where I’m staying now.

 

[AlterEgo]

Okay. So I sent them an email yesterday asking for an update about my case. If my case was actually “dormant” and me sending them an email has woken that up, I’m thinking of this possible scenarios?

1. They reply with offer of an out of court settlement.

2. Proceed to prosecute me.

With scenario 1, can I say that I won’t pay because it’s past 6 months and they are out of time?

With scenario 2, do I wait for the prosecution summons, then ask if this is still in time? But it’s over 6 months, so how would I know if this is in time?

Sorry I’m just getting more confused.

But thank you for explaining.

They can’t prosecute you if they haven’t laid papers within 6 months. At best the company can try to recover any debt it feels it is owed under civil means.

It wasn’t in your interests to contact the train company! The whole thing was just likely to go away. Stop talking to them and keep quiet.

 

[caughttoday]

They can’t prosecute you if they haven’t laid papers within 6 months. At best the company can try to recover any debt it feels it is owed under civil means.

It wasn’t in your interests to contact the train company! The whole thing was just likely to go away. Stop talking to them and keep quiet.

I won’t contact them anymore. Unless they reply to my email from yesterday and depending on what their response is.

I just got anxious because I have an overseas application which will require police clearance, and I’m afraid of not declaring anything with the visa and suddenly something is brewing without me knowing because of no update at all.

Hello everyone,

So after sending them an email last week, I got the response from the prosecution manager:

Good morning xxxxxx,

Apologies for not getting back to you earlier, I have just been made aware of your email(s) this morning.

After reading your mitigation we are prepared to offer you an out of court settlement of £211.80 , which comprise of £200 costs, which I have reduced and the £11.80 fare. Please let me know if this is acceptable.

Kind regards,

xxxxx

Obviously, I would say that I am happy with the result, after more than 10 months of agonising wait.

However, basing from your replies on this thread, is it safe to say that I would not pay them as they have run out of time which is 6 months?

Thank you.

 

[WesternLancer]

Obviously, I would say that I am happy with the result, after more than 10 months of agonising wait.

However, basing from your replies on this thread, is it safe to say that I would not pay them as they have run out of time which is 6 months?

Thank you.

Personally I would pay them as it closes the matter for you and ends your anxiety about the future, and matters to do with your overseas application / police clearance etc. This would be my advice but I am sure others will disagree.

Your alternative, I suppose, is to reply to this offer and say along the lines of 'thanks for this response, but I've been advised that since you are out of time to prosecute me I'm not going to pay this' and take a chance on what they then do next?

They could put it to court anyway and the court not notice it was out of time (they no doubt put big batches of these sorts of cases about ticketing to court and we know the majority of these cases are not contested so everyone concerned just gets found guilty - if that happens that will presumably flag up on police checks etc, and appealing a court decision that is wrong is not going to be something that is easy to do without legal help I would think.

If you want to essentially refuse to pay the offer they have now made to you I would be tempted to engage a solicitor to tell them that, if the solicitor agrees with the approach of people on this forum suggesting it, that is. And engaging a solicitor to tell them that for you will cost more than £211.80 I strongly suspect. And I doubt it would guarantee 100% the problem goes away.

Yours was a case of deliberate fare evasion (short faring) that IIRC you did on more than one occasion. This is a criminal offence and being able to make all that 'go away' for less that £250 is, I would think, a good outcome for you.

This was the risk that was taken by 'waking them up' to your case of course, but as I say, I would now pay what they are asking for. This ends the matter and allows you to move on.

Sorry if this is disappointing to you, but it's just my personal opinion on what you should do now.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Personally I would pay them as it closes the matter for you and ends your anxiety about the future, and matters to do with your overseas application / police clearance etc. This would be my advice but I am sure others will disagree.

Your alternative, I suppose, is to reply to this offer and say along the lines of 'thanks for this response, but I've been advised that since you are out of time to prosecute me I'm not going to pay this' and take a chance on what they then do next?

They could put it to court anyway and the court not notice it was out of time (they no doubt put big batches of these sorts of cases about ticketing to court and we know the majority of these cases are not contested so everyone concerned just gets found guilty - if that happens that will presumably flag up on police checks etc, and appealing a court decision that is wrong is not going to be something that is easy to do without legal help I would think.

If you want to essentially refuse to pay the offer they have now made to you I would be tempted to engage a solicitor to tell them that, if the solicitor agrees with the approach of people on this forum suggesting it, that is. And engaging a solicitor to tell them that for you will cost more than £211.80 I strongly suspect. And I doubt it would guarantee 100% the problem goes away.

Yours was a case of deliberate fare evasion (short faring) that IIRC you did on more than one occasion. This is a criminal offence and being able to make all that 'go away' for less that £250 is, I would think, a good outcome for you.

This was the risk that was taken by 'waking them up' to your case of course, but as I say, I would now pay what they are asking for. This ends the matter and allows you to move on.

Sorry if this is disappointing to you, but it's just my personal opinion on what you should do now.

I'd endorse this view. Essentially, paying the amount asked for will make the matter go away. Failing to do so may well result in there being no further action - but there can be no guarantee of that: the railways are staffed by humans, and humans sometimes get the rules they are meant to be enforcing wrong.

So it comes down to the balance of your appetite for risk on the one hand and your financial position on the other: a lot of people would consider it worth paying £211.80 for the certainty.

 

[Haywain]

I'd endorse this view. Essentially, paying the amount asked for will make the matter go away. Failing to do so may well result in there being no further action - but there can be no guarantee of that: the railways are staffed by humans, and humans sometimes get the rules they are meant to be enforcing wrong.

So it comes down to the balance of your appetite for risk on the one hand and your financial position on the other: a lot of people would consider it worth paying £211.80 for the certainty.

And if they don't bring a prosecution they could still seek to recover the fare and their costs through the civil courts.

 

[caughttoday]

Personally I would pay them as it closes the matter for you and ends your anxiety about the future, and matters to do with your overseas application / police clearance etc. This would be my advice but I am sure others will disagree.

Your alternative, I suppose, is to reply to this offer and say along the lines of 'thanks for this response, but I've been advised that since you are out of time to prosecute me I'm not going to pay this' and take a chance on what they then do next?

They could put it to court anyway and the court not notice it was out of time (they no doubt put big batches of these sorts of cases about ticketing to court and we know the majority of these cases are not contested so everyone concerned just gets found guilty - if that happens that will presumably flag up on police checks etc, and appealing a court decision that is wrong is not going to be something that is easy to do without legal help I would think.

If you want to essentially refuse to pay the offer they have now made to you I would be tempted to engage a solicitor to tell them that, if the solicitor agrees with the approach of people on this forum suggesting it, that is. And engaging a solicitor to tell them that for you will cost more than £211.80 I strongly suspect. And I doubt it would guarantee 100% the problem goes away.

Yours was a case of deliberate fare evasion (short faring) that IIRC you did on more than one occasion. This is a criminal offence and being able to make all that 'go away' for less that £250 is, I would think, a good outcome for you.

This was the risk that was taken by 'waking them up' to your case of course, but as I say, I would now pay what they are asking for. This ends the matter and allows you to move on.

Sorry if this is disappointing to you, but it's just my personal opinion on what you should do now.

Thank you for this advice.

Honestly, I am inclined to pay the amount they offer, as this is significantly less than what I would have expected. And I guess I am also lucky to have found this forum and was able to get help from everyone here.

And you are definitely correct, settling this once and for all will end my anxiety in the future, for a small price to pay.

I can now conclude that this predicament is over. And once again I want to thank all the good people from this forum.

Thanks everyone. It’s the first time I’ve heard about the “6 month cannot prosecute” idea, so I entertained the thought, especially if the amount is going to be thousands of pounds.

But seeing that it’s at £211 is more than enough for me to accept this offer and make this go away.

Thank you for all the honest thoughts and advices.

 

[AlterEgo]

However, basing from your replies on this thread, is it safe to say that I would not pay them as they have run out of time which is 6 months?

Thank you.

My advice is to not pay them. They can't prosecute you.

They could, in theory, if they were bothered, attempt to recover the fare via the civil courts, but all you'd have to pay is the outstanding fare and their costs anyway. They aren't threatening civil action here anyway. They're charging you £200 here for forgetting about your case and *you* reminding them of their own mistake! They had forgotten about you or written your case off.

I find this part of the forum so incredibly frustrating sometimes. Earlier in the thread, last year, we had someone tell you that you should just 'fess up to historic offences, which was not in your interest to do. As you have found, they aren't interested in that, and have simply charged you the fare for a single instance - the day you were stopped. Now we are seeing posters advise you to pay the company a sum of money to prevent a prosecution which cannot take place. "They might just prosecute you anyway and hope the court doesn't notice" is no different to "They might commence prosecution anyway after you settle because they are lazy and incompetent".

Contacting the magistrates' court was a prudent move given your worry about a police check, and conclusively showed no prosecution had taken place. There was never any need to contact Southeastern at any point - the advice to do so was again, counter to your interests - and there is no need to pay them any money. They cannot prosecute you. They cocked it up, too bad for them.

The advice here has caused you even more uncertainty and anxiety, and you still don't have to pay them, although you probably feel you should.

 

[WesternLancer]

Thank you for this advice.

Honestly, I am inclined to pay the amount they offer, as this is significantly less than what I would have expected. And I guess I am also lucky to have found this forum and was able to get help from everyone here.

And you are definitely correct, settling this once and for all will end my anxiety in the future, for a small price to pay.

I can now conclude that this predicament is over. And once again I want to thank all the good people from this forum.

Thanks everyone. It’s the first time I’ve heard about the “6 month cannot prosecute” idea, so I entertained the thought, especially if the amount is going to be thousands of pounds.

But seeing that it’s at £211 is more than enough for me to accept this offer and make this go away.

Thank you for all the honest thoughts and advices.

I think you have weighed up the issues, on the basis of differing advice here, which has helped you see the wider picture and the options, and as you say if they were demanding £1000+ sums you may have reached a different decision. Hopefully this is the benefit of the forum.

At the end of the day you have to take your own decision and hopefully forum advise helps you do that in a considered way.

I see @AlterEgo has disagreed, and again this helps by setting out the differing views.

If it were me, or a member of my family in your circumstances, I would still pay it (but of course I don't know your financial circumstances) - I would not even want the possibility / risk or threat of a civil action given the hassle that could involve, hanging over me and would pay the sum requested to avoid that happening, even if the risk might be remote.

 

[Fermiboson]

It may be morally correct to do so but I agree that it is of no benefit to OP to pay them.

If they do prosecute you, the courts can and will dismiss the case when reminded of the deadline. We have seldom seen TOCs bother with civil action.

 

[WesternLancer]

It may be morally correct to do so but I agree that it is of no benefit to OP to pay them.

If they do prosecute you, the courts can and will dismiss the case when reminded of the deadline. We have seldom seen TOCs bother with civil action.

This is presumably a valid view, but who is going to remind the courts if by the time this happens the OP has gone away / left the country etc (as I think they are indicating they plan to do)? Even if you were not away the time / cost of going to the court / waiting for your case (often seems to involve reports on here of people waiting hours in court / most of a day for this) to make the point on your own behalf, dealing with the prosecutor / court officials etc means that doing it yourself is not necessarily easy.

I think one of the things that has to be considered when weighting up the option (and the sum demanded) is how practical it is for the OP to implement the advice given, based on presumed lack of detailed knowledge of court processes / procedures etc

If I could avoid all of that and close it down for c£200 that is what I would do.

 

[AlterEgo]

This is presumably a valid view, but who is going to remind the courts if by the time this happens the OP has gone away / left the country etc (as I think they are indicating they plan to do)?

Why would that matter? They'll have their visa and police check - the only thing that has been causing them to chase up the case - and be gone. And it is such a remote possibility anyway, as remote, it seems, of them mistakenly prosecuting anyway even after the settlement has been paid. And in the very unlikely event this event does happen they can file a statutory declaration on their return. If they ever return.

The case was almost certainly closed or inactive because for whatever reason the company failed the progress it within six months. The company know they can't do anything and are probably delighted at the prospect of getting £200 in their costs for doing pip all.

This really strikes me as raising unnecessary fear and uncertainty.

Even if you were not away the time / cost of going to the court / waiting for your case (often seems to involve reports on here of people waiting hours in court / most of a day for this) to make the point on your own behalf, dealing with the prosecutor / court officials etc means that doing it yourself is not necessarily easy.

A statutory declaration is relatively easy. A court should not allow a 6+ month old SJPN to progress, but even if it does, this is not that difficult to challenge, even in person.

 

[WesternLancer]

A statutory declaration is relatively easy. A court should not allow a 6+ month old SJPN to progress, but even if it does, this is not that difficult to challenge, even in person.

Well, I've never done one so I agree that it may well be if you have confidence in your ability to progress such stuff. But not everyone is in that position (and of course we do see on different threads in the past people needing plenty of help and advice with that - which again probably causes them a certain degree of anxiety).

Of course in my posts I am saying what I would do in the circumstances the OP now finds themselves.

 

[Fermiboson]

I recall a thread here sometime ago where an SWR SJPN did progress in the magistrates after the six month deadline passed, but a letter to the court stating that it had passed got the case dismissed. Can’t find it though, perhaps other will remember which thread it was.

 

[ikcdab]

Personally I would pay them as it closes the matter for you and ends your anxiety about the future, and matters to do with your overseas application / police clearance etc. This would be my advice but I am sure others will disagree.

Your alternative, I suppose, is to reply to this offer and say along the lines of 'thanks for this response, but I've been advised that since you are out of time to prosecute me I'm not going to pay this' and take a chance on what they then do next?

They could put it to court anyway and the court not notice it was out of time (they no doubt put big batches of these sorts of cases about ticketing to court and we know the majority of these cases are not contested so everyone concerned just gets found guilty - if that happens that will presumably flag up on police checks etc, and appealing a court decision that is wrong is not going to be something that is easy to do without legal help I would think.

If you want to essentially refuse to pay the offer they have now made to you I would be tempted to engage a solicitor to tell them that, if the solicitor agrees with the approach of people on this forum suggesting it, that is. And engaging a solicitor to tell them that for you will cost more than £211.80 I strongly suspect. And I doubt it would guarantee 100% the problem goes away.

Yours was a case of deliberate fare evasion (short faring) that IIRC you did on more than one occasion. This is a criminal offence and being able to make all that 'go away' for less that £250 is, I would think, a good outcome for you.

This was the risk that was taken by 'waking them up' to your case of course, but as I say, I would now pay what they are asking for. This ends the matter and allows you to move on.

Sorry if this is disappointing to you, but it's just my personal opinion on what you should do now.

I completely agree. You evaded the fares so now should not seek to avoid paying the penalty. The correct and ethical thing to do is to pay up.

 

[furlong]

I completely agree. You evaded the fares so now should not seek to avoid paying the penalty. The correct and ethical thing to do is to pay up.

To pay up any fares avoided and perhaps accrued interest at a statutory rate. But not some arbitrary figure plucked out of thin air for "costs". Just send them a cheque for the fares, same as they'd receive with a civil claim, take it or leave it.

 

[AlterEgo]

To pay up any fares avoided and perhaps accrued interest at a statutory rate. But not some arbitrary figure plucked out of thin air for "costs". Just send them a cheque for the fares, same as they'd receive with a civil claim, take it or leave it.

Agreed - if the OP really wants to discharge their fare for the day. £200 for "handling" this case they forgot about and messed up is indefensible.

 

[jumble]

It may be morally correct to do so but I agree that it is of no benefit to OP to pay them.

If they do prosecute you, the courts can and will dismiss the case when reminded of the deadline. We have seldom seen TOCs bother with civil action.

The only benefit to the OP of paying the fares ( and in my view paying the difference between the short fare and the correct fare) is if they have become a person who wishes to be someone who thinks it is the right thing to do in paying for services they use or have used.
I agree with @AlterEgo that paying the £200 is nonsense

t?

They could put it to court anyway and the court not notice it was out of time (they no doubt put big batches of these sorts of cases about ticketing to court and we know the majority of these cases are not contested so everyone concerned just gets found guilty - if that happens that will presumably flag up on police checks etc, and appealing a court decision that is wrong is not going to be something that is easy to do without legal help I would think.

Is it really likely that having had their attention drawn to the fact that the matter is out of time that a prosecutions dept would try it on?
It would take a particular type of imbecele to do this IMHO

 

[WesternLancer]

Is it really likely that having had their attention drawn to the fact that the matter is out of time that a prosecutions dept would try it on?
It would take a particular type of imbecele to do this IMHO

I don't know the answer to this. But I do know some organisations sending large number of cases through for action make errors.

But the OP makes points about their desire to remove the anxiety and stress this has put them under (see early posts) - my view on the best way to do this is to pay the sum now being asked for.