Caught with a Zone 1&2 Travel Card... I was coming from Zone 4

[matt_world2004]

Of course it would!!! Why do you think the Underground barriers have had an error code for Dumbbell ever since the year dot? And I appreciate it’s not the Underground, but National Rail barriers are just as capable as those Underground.

The underground dunbell error code is not that smart. It goes on routing not journey history. For example if you used a zone3-5 ticket at ealing Broadway and got off at dagenham east it would know that it is impossible to make that journey without going through zones 1,2. So it would throw. That code upm However if you used the same paper at Hayes & Harlington and got off at dagenham east. It wouldn't, because Hayes has no barriers.

 

[SurfSteve]

Slight update.

I've just seen on my MG11 that was given to me after my details were taken that the officer put that I had travelled from a station in zone 5 (near where I live) when in fact I had travelled in from Zone 4... I'm assuming this won't make a huge difference to my case, but its interesting that they've got it wrong.

 

[najaB]

I've just seen on my MG11 that was given to me after my details were taken that the officer put that I had travelled from a station in zone 5 (near where I live) when in fact I had travelled in from Zone 4... I'm assuming this won't make a huge difference to my case, but its interesting that they've got it wrong.

If you were travelling outside your zones, then no it won't make a big difference in the grand scheme of things.

 

[hkstudent]

If you were travelling outside your zones, then no it won't make a big difference in the grand scheme of things.

No, any details do matter, especially it may be considered in the final compensation value.
I am not sure it would be good to request amending the origin station

 

[ac-03]

This is completely incorrect.

Ever heard of a short season? That’s the monitor that can be switched on?

 

[ac-03]

They may be able to check how long you have been purchasing the 1-2 travel card and if you had previously purchased different travel cards.

If you’ve been using an annual season ticket there would be a log of your name and address? Maybe pointing at what zone you had “actually” been travelling from. So Southeastern would be able to predict how long you had been evading your fare ?

 

[SurfSteve]

If you’ve been using an annual season ticket there would be a log of your name and address? Maybe pointing at what zone you had “actually” been travelling from. So Southeastern would be able to predict how long you had been evading your fare ?

I've never had an annual season ticket. I told them I live in a town in zone 5, but that I would get a bus and travel from zone 4.

 

[ac-03]

How is this relevant? Travelcards have the same validity on buses whether Oyster or paper.

It’s a lot easier to cheat the system with a paper ticket.

Purchase a 2-3/4/5/6 Travel Card on paper and you can travel through zone one as many times as you want, free until caught. This is one of the reasons why LU used to put coloured triangles on the bottom of an outer (non zone 1 ticket). Try that trick with an Oyster card and you will be charged the appropriate fare and/or the journey history will be fed into a database so that the data can be pulled and investigated.

What I am surprised with though is that NR don’t move onto an universal ITSO system like the system of OV Cards in the Netherlands. It would be a costly outlay initially but would cut down on paper ticket fraud.

 

[najaB]

What I am surprised with though is that NR don’t move onto an universal ITSO system like the system of OV Cards in the Netherlands.

Network Rail doesn't run trains or collect fares.

 

[ac-03]

NR. National rail.. the railways of the UK.

 

[Deerfold]

It’s a lot easier to cheat the system with a paper ticket.

Purchase a 2-3/4/5/6 Travel Card on paper and you can travel through zone one as many times as you want, free until caught. This is one of the reasons why LU used to put coloured triangles on the bottom of an outer (non zone 1 ticket). Try that trick with an Oyster card and you will be charged the appropriate fare and/or the journey history will be fed into a database so that the data can be pulled and investigated.

What I am surprised with though is that NR don’t move onto an universal ITSO system like the system of OV Cards in the Netherlands. It would be a costly outlay initially but would cut down on paper ticket fraud.

Interesting, but not relevant. A poster claimed that the OP might say they didn't use Oyster because they never used buses (The OP has since confirmed they do use buses).

 

[najaB]

NR. National rail.. the railways of the UK.

There's no such organsiation. The passenger railways are run by independent Train Operating Companies (TOCs). The closest thing to 'National Rail' as a body is the Rail Delivery Group, previously the Association of Train Operating Companies (ATOC).

Several TOCs do use ISTO-compatible smart cards (I've got a Scotrail one in my wallet), but despite all being ITSO compliant, none of them is compatible with the other and I fear that will continue to be the case since the TOCs use separate retail systems.

 

[Deerfold]

There's no such organsiation. The passenger railways are run by independent Train Operating Companies (TOCs). The closest thing to 'National Rail' as a body is the Rail Delivery Group, previously the Association of Train Operating Companies (ATOC).

National Rail is a trading name of the RDG, licensed from DoT. They promote use of the name National Rail.

https://trademarks.ipo.gov.uk/ipo-tmcase/page/Results/4/EU001733575

 

[Haywain]

despite all being ITSO compliant, none of them is compatible with the other

I believe that is, largely, in the process of being resolved. However, it is not a problem exclusive to railways as I understand it is also a widespread issue with bus companies.

 

[ac-03]

How is this quote relevant? The person stated that they were caught at a train station not a bus?

 

[ac-03]

Interesting, but not relevant. A poster claimed that the OP might say they didn't use Oyster because they never used buses (The OP has since confirmed they do use buses).

Where in my reply do I state anything about buses? It’s purely why people use paper tickets because it’s a lot easier to evade your fare?

 

[najaB]

National Rail is a trading name of the RDG, licensed from DoT. They promote use of the name National Rail.

As you said, a trading name, not an organisation.

 

[Deerfold]

How is this quote relevant? The person stated that they were caught at a train station not a bus?

Precisely. My comment that you replied to was to a poster explaining that the OP should say he used paper tickets because he didn't use buses.

 

[Deerfold]

As you said, a trading name, not an organisation.

But quite clearly the trading name of an organisation. Are you pretending not to know who they are?

Many of the TOCs use trading names - should we always use their full legal names?

 

[najaB]

But quite clearly the trading name of an organisation. Are you pretending not to know who they are?

No, of course not. But NR in the context of the railway primarily means Network Rail.

 

[Deerfold]

No, of course not. But NR in the context of the railway primarily means Network Rail.

NR can mean both. It's usually clear from context which is meant. But even once that confusion has been clarified, why post 72 claiming there's no such organisation as National Rail?

 

[SurfSteve]

2 Months today since the offence. Still no word. Is this normal? I know they have up to 6 months to put it before a court but do they always need that long?

 

[Fawkes Cat]

2 Months today since the offence. Still no word. Is this normal? I know they have up to 6 months to put it before a court but do they always need that long?

They don't always, but sometimes they do. If you look back through this forum, you'll see that quite recently one railway company(1) tried to start some prosecutions at the last minute(2). So you can't be certain that nothing will happen until the full six months have passed (plus a few weeks for the court to issue the notice).

Footnotes:
(1) Merseyrail - which isn't the company that affects you, but it does go to show that the railway companies can use the whole time they are allowed in law.
(2) And it looks as if Merseyrail actually went past the time they were allowed: if you do get told that you are being prosecuted after six months, check back here and we can go through the legal time limits with you then, to make sure that the law has been followed.

 

[Haywain]

Footnotes:
(1) Merseyrail - which isn't the company that affects you, but it does go to show that the railway companies can use the whole time they are allowed in law.
(2) And it looks as if Merseyrail actually went past the time they were allowed: if you do get told that you are being prosecuted after six months, check back here and we can go through the legal time limits with you then, to make sure that the law has been followed.

There is no evidence from this forum that Merseyrail have done anything wrong.

 

[BluePenguin]

The ticket readers would show a “dumbbell” has been happening for a very long time, i.e. an exit at Cannon Street without an entrance somewhere, and vice versa. Patterns can be flagged for investigation. Investigators can and do watch out for/follow particular passengers if they have suspicions, and would likely know exactly where the passenger has travelled from before they’re questioned.

If the stations have no barriers and a paper ticket is used then how can the OP "enter"? Also if you have a travel card you don't have to do the whole in and out thing I thought.

 

[Trackman]

If the stations have no barriers and a paper ticket is used then how can the OP "enter"? Also if you have a travel card you don't have to do the whole in and out thing I thought.

The whole paper tickets and barriers thing has been covered earlier in this thread.

 

[BluePenguin]

The whole paper tickets and barriers thing has been covered earlier in this thread.

I realised that when I read further down in the thread

 

[SurfSteve]

Hi all,

Received this in the post today. What is best to do? Just fill in the bare minimum of information?
I know from reading the forums that it isn't necessary to add your NI number or occupation so I will hold back on that.

Ta,

Steve

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Hi all,

Received this in the post today. What is best to do? Just fill in the bare minimum of information?
I know from reading the forums that it isn't necessary to add your NI number or occupation so I will hold back on that.

Ta,

Steve

Early in this thread, in view of the length of time in question, people suggested consulting a lawyer. I think now would be the time to do that.

As has already been said, you may have legal cover if you are a trade union member or maybe from your household insurance, or possibly your bank account. If you don't have cover from any source and you're worried about the cost, there may be solicitors who can offer a free initial consultation, or (I think but I am not certain) the Citizens' Advice may be able to point you in the right direction.

 

[RunawayTrain]

Hi all,

Received this in the post today. What is best to do? Just fill in the bare minimum of information?
I know from reading the forums that it isn't necessary to add your NI number or occupation so I will hold back on that.

Ta,

Steve

It may only be necessary to fill in the bare minimum of information, but I wonder if it would be better to fill in all fields fully, so as not to appear slippery and to be seen as cooperative. I agree with Fawkes Cat - a lawyer may help here.