Caught without railcard - what now?

[AR19283]

Hi all,

I’ve been issued a travel incident report for having no valid railcard. When I receive a letter I will have to provide proof of said railcard.

I’ll spare the sob story but I left ‘railcard’ ticked accidentally when buying tickets. My railcard has been expired for a year and I don’t carry it anymore.

I panicked and said I’d just left it at home, implying it was valid, and then felt too awkward and anxious to backtrack and make a scene. Hence why I signed my own death warrant (the incident report).

Any advice appreciated as to how I can approach this.
Thanks in advance

 

[Hadders]

Welcome to the forum!

How would you suggest I approach this? Do I just admit having no valid railcard, apologise, and pay up?

Essentially this.

Is it worth sending proof of the digital one?

Not really as they will know you purchased the railcard after you were stopped. Telling them that you purchased a railcard following the incident is mitigation you might want to mention in your reply to their letter.

I’ve already paid a penalty fare once before for a mistake

How long ago and was it the same train company?

We could do with knowing which train company you're dealing with over this incident. This is the advice I normally give to people who ask for our help in similar circumstances to yourself:

You will receive a letter from the train company which will typically take a few weeks to arrive. It could be sooner but shouldn't take longer than six months. The letter will say that they have received a report, are considering prosecuting you and asking for your version of events. It is important that you engage with and reply to this letter. I would simply be honest and say that following the incident you checked your railcard and realised that it had expired. You might want to include the following in your reply:

- That you are sorry for what has happened
- What you have learned from the incident
- That you are keen to settle the matter without the need for court action
- Offer to pay the outstanding fare and the train company's administrative costs in dealing with the matter
- It might also help if you tell them that you have renewed your railcard since the incident happened

Make sure your reply is short and concise, don't give a sob story - they've heard it all before. Most train companies are usually prepared to offer an administrative settlement (commonly known as an out of court settlement) for people who engage with the process and who haven't come to their attention before. There is no guarantee of this and they could decide to prosecute you in the magistrates court if they wanted to.

An agravating factor in your case is that you have been issued with a Penalty Fare before. If this is for the same train company then iit might complicate things. On balance it will probably still be possible to arrrange a settlement but you might have to work a bit harder to get it.

Also, be aware that the train company will be able to access your online ticketing account so they will be be aware if you have travelled with railcard discounted tickets since your railcard expired and they may wish to factor this into any settlement figure. What you say in your reply is important in this respect; you must answer their questions truthfully but you are not required to incriminate yourself either.

If you are offered a settlement the amount tend to be around £150 plus the outstandning fare. The outstanding fare will normally be calculated using the Anytime Single fare, with no credit given for the ticket you did hold. An out of court settlement might appear to be a fine, but it isn't and you won't have a criminal record as a result of accepting one.

Feel free to post a copy of the letter once it arrives (with personal details redacted) along with your draft reply in this thread and forum members will be happy to proof read it for you.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

@AR19283. Welcome to the forum.

This could prove expensive.

If you've been buying and using inappropriately railcard discounted tickets for some time, but without an accompanying in date, valid railcard, then you didn't have a valid ticket for any of these various journeys.

If the train company's investigation team realise this, and it's easy enough for them to check your purchase history if you've been routinely buying your tickets online, they could well ask you to pay them the full undiscounted Anytime Day Single fare, for each and every such journey they reckon you've made since your old railcard expired.

This could soon add up. In addition, as @Hadders has mentioned, they'll probably request that you to pay them a three figure sum towards their admin and investigation costs, on top of the unpaid fares.

Settle this in full, and you're unlikely to be taken to court, although your having previously been issued with a Penalty Fare doesn't really help your cause.

However, if you don't engage positively with the train company's investigation team, it's still an option for them to take you to court, where, from what you've told us, there must be a fair chance of you being found guilty, certainly on the recent occasion when you were stopped.

Sorry to be the bearer of such potentially bad news. I'll leave it to others to suggest how you can perhaps try to mitigate the situation in which you now find yourself in.

 

[AR19283]

@Hadders @Mcr Warrior

Thank you both for your informative replies.

Hadders, it’s Northern Rail I’m dealing with, and yes this is the same company I previously had a penalty fare with early last year. Is it worth mentioning my previous fine before they discover it themselves?

I would simply be honest and say that following the incident you checked your railcard and realised that it had expired.

Sorry I might be misunderstanding this, but are you suggesting I say I deliberately bought a railcard ticket, both not realising I’d left it at home, and not realising it expired a year ago?
Is this better than saying the whole thing was a massive blunder?

I know you can’t speak with any certainty, but is there any reason why Northern would actively choose prosecution over a settlement?
Logically if I’m cooperative, offer to pay all costs, make a full apology and state what amends I’ve made e.g. new railcard, it’s easier for them to settle with me than the hassle of court? Or am I being too optimistic?

If you've been buying and using inappropriately railcard discounted tickets for some time

I think this could’ve happened once or twice before I was aware the card had expired, but by no means was it a deliberate or routine behaviour. Is it worth mentioning, or is that just incriminating?

Also (last question), what could I expect if they choose to prosecute? Will I have to attend court in person, and will I get a criminal record? I’m so nervous about the impact this might have on my job and family.

Thanks

 

[Fawkes Cat]

@Hadders @Mcr Warrior

Thank you both for your informative replies.

Hadders, it’s Northern Rail I’m dealing with, and yes this is the same company I previously had a penalty fare with early last year. Is it worth mentioning my previous fine before they discover it themselves?



Sorry I might be misunderstanding this, but are you suggesting I say I deliberately bought a railcard ticket, both not realising I’d left it at home, and not realising it expired a year ago?
Is this better than saying the whole thing was a massive blunder?

I know you can’t speak with any certainty, but is there any reason why Northern would actively choose prosecution over a settlement?
Logically if I’m cooperative, offer to pay all costs, make a full apology and state what amends I’ve made e.g. new railcard, it’s easier for them to settle with me than the hassle of court? Or am I being too optimistic?



I think this could’ve happened once or twice before I was aware the card had expired, but by no means was it a deliberate or routine behaviour. Is it worth mentioning, or is that just incriminating?

Also (last question), what could I expect if they choose to prosecute? Will I have to attend court in person, and will I get a criminal record? I’m so nervous about the impact this might have on my job and family.

Thanks

You might find it useful to look at it from the railway's point of view so that you can assess what they might do.

The railway's main aim is that their customer (you) should always pay the right fare without too much cost to the railway. So this means that they will want to do whatever is necessary to deter you from not paying the right fare in future.

As you say, to settle this out of court would be cheaper for the railway, so that will encourage them to go down that route
But would the railway see that as an adequate deterrent? It seems that your Railcard was a year out of date. Given that Railcards are sold for one (sometimes three) years, that's an awfully long time to be out of date. So the railway might think that the cost of going to court is worth it to make sure you get your tickets right in future.

But it might be that the railway will be lighter if there aren't actually many tickets bought over the last year. And although as has been said above you're not obliged to incriminate yourself you need to know that the railway will have access to details of any tickets you have bought online - including whether you asked for a Railcard ticket.

So what does this mean for you?
- you need to go through your records and see how many times you have travelled with a Railcard ticket when you didn't have a valid Railcard. The more often it's happened, the more likely it is that the railway will take you to court.
- you need to think about what you can say and do to persuade the railway that you won't do it again, so they don't need to come down hard on you. Obviously this includes recognising that you were in the wrong and saying sorry; if you are still entitled to a Railcard it can also include buying a new one which will stop the problem happening again for another year or three.

(Edited for typo: dieter > deter)

 

[Hadders]

Is it worth mentioning my previous fine before they discover it themselves?

No, I wouldn't mention it. You are not required to incriminate yourself.

Sorry I might be misunderstanding this, but are you suggesting I say I deliberately bought a railcard ticket, both not realising I’d left it at home, and not realising it expired a year ago?
Is this better than saying the whole thing was a massive blunder?

I'm not saying you did it deliberately but the railcard was a year out of date. Look at it from Northern's point of view.
Don't get too hung up on the exact wording for now - post a draft reply in this thread when you receive the letter and we can advise then.

I know you can’t speak with any certainty, but is there any reason why Northern would actively choose prosecution over a settlement?

Northern are normally one of the more pragmatic companies when it comes to settling out of court but they hold the cards and decide what will happen.
However inadvertently, you have broken the law and you have come to their attention previously.

Logically if I’m cooperative, offer to pay all costs, make a full apology and state what amends I’ve made e.g. new railcard, it’s easier for them to settle with me than the hassle of court? Or am I being too optimistic?

On balance I expect them to settle. There is plenty of evidence on this forum where people have obtained out of court settlements by following the advice we give.

I think this could’ve happened once or twice before

How do you buy your tickets - online or through an app or at a station?

Also (last question), what could I expect if they choose to prosecute? Will I have to attend court in person, and will I get a criminal record? I’m so nervous about the impact this might have on my job and family.

If they do prosecute it depends under which law. If you plead guilty you don't normally have to attend court in person these days for cases like this (although you can if you want to). You get sent a form (called a Single Justice Procedure Notice) and you return it with your plea and any mitigation. A magistrate then decides the sentance and you're notified of the outcome via post.

A fine will be imposed as a punishment based on your income and it addition you have to pay:
A surcharge of 40% of the value of the fine
A contribution towards Northern's costs
Compensation for the fare

A conviction under the Railway Bylaws (which is what they normally use) isn't normally entered onto thre Police National Computer so shouldn't appear on a standard DBS check. If you are prosecuted under the Regulation of the Railways Act then this would be entered and would show on a DBS check until a conviction is spent (normally a year). A conviction for a minor railway ticketing matter shouldn't have any adverse impact on your career.

 

[Snow1964]

Some of how you approach this (and peoples opinions) is going to depend on your railcard (is it digital or physical card), and the validity dates and how long ago your previous penalty was. You are going to have to explain these in detail.

Example : If it was I had a digital railcard, it had just expired, hadn't realised, then when caught at a barrier, went straight across to ticket office and bought a physical one to demonstrate attempting to avoid repeat, then that is going to get a different answer to a scenario of used to have digital railcard, knew it had expired couple of years ago, didn't renew, but kept buying railcard discounted tickets.

The reason timing is important, is in scenario 1, following 12 or 36months covered, and if recently forgotten to renew it again when new card recently expired looks poor, but in scenario 2 if you have whole series of tickets through same app then got lots more trouble and much bigger risk of huge bill.

 

[AR19283]

Hi all,

Received my letter today and have attached it in this message.



Thanks

 

[Huntergreed]

Hi all,

Received my letter today and have attached it in this message.



Thanks

Thanks for uploading this.

As expected, Northern as asking to hear your side of the story. As posted upthread, it is important to reply to this constructively. Your response should include the following points:

You might want to include the following in your reply:

- That you are sorry for what has happened
- What you have learned from the incident
- That you are keen to settle the matter without the need for court action
- Offer to pay the outstanding fare and the train company's administrative costs in dealing with the matter
- It might also help if you tell them that you have renewed your railcard since the incident happened

Make sure your reply is short and concise, don't give a sob story - they've heard it all before. Most train companies are usually prepared to offer an administrative settlement (commonly known as an out of court settlement) for people who engage with the process and who haven't come to their attention before. There is no guarantee of this and they could decide to prosecute you in the magistrates court if they wanted to.

Once you have written a draft, post it on here and we will happily offer amendments before you send it to Northern.

 

[AR19283]

Thanks @Huntergreed

Here is my initial draft:

To whom it may concern,



Thank you for your letter dated _____.



I’d like to offer my apologies for the incident in question - I realise it’s my responsibility to have the correct tickets for my journey and as I commute regularly for work I try to ensure that I do.



On this occasion I had bought tickets in a rush and failed to check them properly before boarding the train. As such I’ve been trying to buy tickets further in advance to avoid any similar issues.



As I did not have a valid railcard to hand, I made sure immediately after that I purchased a digital 16-25 railcard. I’ve been using this on my journeys since and can provide evidence if required.



I would greatly appreciate the opportunity to settle this matter outside of court, and am more than happy to pay any fares, fines, and any costs incurred to yourselves in dealing with this matter.



I look forward to your response.



Sincerely,

______.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Thanks @Huntergreed

Here is my initial draft:

To whom it may concern,



Thank you for your letter dated _____.



I’d like to offer my apologies for the incident in question - I realise it’s my responsibility to have the correct tickets for my journey and as I commute regularly for work I try to ensure that I do.



On this occasion I had bought tickets in a rush and failed to check them properly before boarding the train. As such I’ve been trying to buy tickets further in advance to avoid any similar issues.



As I did not have a valid railcard to hand, I made sure immediately after that I purchased a digital 16-25 railcard. I’ve been using this on my journeys since and can provide evidence if required.



I would greatly appreciate the opportunity to settle this matter outside of court, and am more than happy to pay any fares, fines, and any costs incurred to yourselves in dealing with this matter.



I look forward to your response.



Sincerely,

______.

There may be people along shortly with fine tuning, but I think that's essentially fine.

 

[AR19283]

Thanks @Fawkes Cat

Any further help from other members would be appreciated.
@Hadders @Mcr Warrior - I know you are particularly knowledgable so I’d be grateful for your input also.

I was planning on typing up my response and printing it off, but the letter from Northern suggests I have to write my response on the back? I’m assuming that format has to be followed?

 

[Hadders]

I think you’ve got all the points covered on your letter. Minor thing - I’d remove the word ‘fines’ in the penultimate paragraph because only a court can impose a fine, and you don’t want a fine imposed by a court!

It’s ok to type your reply on a blank sheet and attach it to their letter. Just make sure what you type has the case reference number on it in case it gets separated.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

It’s ok to type your reply on a blank sheet and attach it to their letter. Just make sure what you type has the case reference number on it in case it gets separated.

And to be really safe, write 'please see attached sheet' in the space on the back of the letter they sent you. That way, if the two bits of paper do get separated, whoever finds the letter will know they need to look for your reply on the separate piece of paper.

 

[AR19283]

Thanks a lot @Hadders and @Fawkes Cat

I’ll try and get this posted tomorrow and hope for the best!

I’m hopeful I will be offered a settlement but either way, I’ll put the outcome up when I find out.

 

[AR19283]

Hi all,

I have received a letter offering to settle the matter for a fixed penalty notice of £105.30 which I’ve now paid.

They actually sent a response on the same day they received my letter, which I was surprised about. I expected to wait longer.

I think that’s a great outcome, and thanks to everyone who provided advice. Hopefully this is useful for anyone who finds themselves in the same situation. But ultimately, don’t get caught out like I did! A £5 or £6 ticket is better than a £100 fine.

 

[ChewChewTrain]

Thanks for letting us know. Sounds like you realise you’ve been relatively lucky.

Keep your nose squeaky clean from now on!

 

[Hadders]

Thanks for letting us know the outcome. It's s decent result for you and in line with what I expected.

 

[AR19283]

Hi everyone,

Thanks for your previous advice. I’ve just had a surprise in my inbox, 5 months later.

I’ve just received another email from Northern stating they’ve investigated my trainline account and I now need to either 1) provide evidence I had a valid railcard between dates in 2022-2023 or 2) pay another £140 to settle the matter.

I’m very surprised as I thought the matter had been dealt with. I’ve already paid a sum of over £100 and have been travelling using a railcard since?

I could do without, but is it easier to just pay?

Thanks in advance

 

[Bertie the bus]

The matter had been dealt with but it looks like they have now found other instances of where you did the same thing and want reimbursing for those journeys as well.

 

[spotify95]

Hi everyone,

Thanks for your previous advice. I’ve just had a surprise in my inbox, 5 months later.

I’ve just received another email from Northern stating they’ve investigated my trainline account and I now need to either 1) provide evidence I had a valid railcard between dates in 2022-2023 or 2) pay another £140 to settle the matter.

I’m very surprised as I thought the matter had been dealt with. I’ve already paid a sum of over £100 and have been travelling using a railcard since?

I could do without, but is it easier to just pay?

Thanks in advance

Have they stated a specific time line of dates in 2022/2023? As far as I know, rail companies only have 6 months from the date of the offence to prosecute for it (unless they use the Fraud Act).

Others will be here to help a bit more but if you could post the contents of the email (with personal information/case numbers removed for privacy reasons) it would be helpful to see what the best course of action would then be.

 

[WesternLancer]

Hi everyone,

Thanks for your previous advice. I’ve just had a surprise in my inbox, 5 months later.

I’ve just received another email from Northern stating they’ve investigated my trainline account and I now need to either 1) provide evidence I had a valid railcard between dates in 2022-2023 or 2) pay another £140 to settle the matter.

I’m very surprised as I thought the matter had been dealt with. I’ve already paid a sum of over £100 and have been travelling using a railcard since?

I could do without, but is it easier to just pay?

Thanks in advance

It might be easier to pay....

But have they made it clear this is a further investigation? IE not just asking for what you paid before again in some sort of admin muddle?

It sounds like they have investigated your on line purchasing records and think they have found other occasions where you had left the Railcard discount request ticked (accidentally or on purpose) during the period they think you had no railcard - could this be true? Can you check your own purchase records form that period to see if you bought tickets with a discount but when you know you did not have an in date railcard as a way of checking from your side.

If you said / implied before you wanted to do the right thing then that ay well include paying for tickets that you had with a discount, when you were not entitled to that discount by virtue of not having a valid railcard. So the starting point would be to check your tickets from that period, if you can.

Others may point out that too much time has possibly gone past for them to bring a prosecution - see post #21 - (depending on the travel dates) but that would depend if you want to risk ignoring them and what may happen if you do - a point I'm not sure about.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Hi everyone,

Thanks for your previous advice. I’ve just had a surprise in my inbox, 5 months later.

I’ve just received another email from Northern stating they’ve investigated my trainline account and I now need to either 1) provide evidence I had a valid railcard between dates in 2022-2023 or 2) pay another £140 to settle the matter.

I’m very surprised as I thought the matter had been dealt with. I’ve already paid a sum of over £100 and have been travelling using a railcard since?

I could do without, but is it easier to just pay?

Thanks in advance

A lot depends on how much you value your time and (which is perhaps another way of saying the same thing) how willing you are to have a fight - which you might not win.

The quick, easy and certain way out of this is to pay the £140. The obvious drawback of this is that you will be £140 down on the deal - although depending on the exact details of your position, you might decide that is a price worth paying.

Or if you have evidence of having a railcard for the dates that they're asking about, then you might want to show them details of that. And it seems to me that 'evidence' might include still having the railcard (if you had a physical one) or it might be proof of purchase (easiest if you bought the card online, whether it was physical or held on your phone). I assume that if you can prove that you had a railcard for the dates then the railway will then walk away.

But of course you may not have evidence any more - there's no requirement to hang on to old railcards or proof of purchase so you might well have thrown all your evidence away. Or it may be that you didn't have a railcard for the dates involved. Either way, you would be within your rights to let the railway know that you have no evidence of having a railcard at the time, and you did not believe that you were required to keep such evidence.

At that point, you would be in the hands of how keen the railway were for a fight. They might decide that it was not cost effective to pursue a prosecution. Or they might decide that a prosecution is worth pursuing. And if they do that, then you would have to assess your chances of winning at court.

Ultimately, only you have the facts on how strong your position is. The stronger it is, the more chance you have of winning the fight. But the simple solution will be to pay up.

<Edit> but I would particularly endorse one of the points @WesternLancer made while I was writing this:

But have they made it clear this is a further investigation? IE not just asking for what you paid before again in some sort of admin muddle?

</edit>

 

[AR19283]

Hi all,

Thanks for your advice once again.

The letter states they have investigated specific dates between 2022-2023 and this DOES NOT include the incident I originally posted about “which has been previously dealt with”.

The amount they are asking for is higher than previous so not an admin mistake.

It also states that the fraud act would apply to any criminal proceedings.

It was a physical railcard I used to have and I’m not sure when it expired, I don’t think I have it anymore. It could’ve been valid for a good chunk of the dates in question but I really couldn’t produce any evidence and don’t fancy it going to court!

It’s just frustrating to get a £140 bill out of nowhere right after Christmas!

 

[WesternLancer]

Hi all,

Thanks for your advice once again.

The letter states they have investigated specific dates between 2022-2023 and this DOES NOT include the incident I originally posted about “which has been previously dealt with”.

The amount they are asking for is higher than previous so not an admin mistake.

It also states that the fraud act would apply to any criminal proceedings.

It was a physical railcard I used to have and I’m not sure when it expired, I don’t think I have it anymore. It could’ve been valid for a good chunk of the dates in question but I really couldn’t produce any evidence and don’t fancy it going to court!

It’s just frustrating to get a £140 bill out of nowhere right after Christmas!

Thanks - so admin error pretty much ruled out in your mind.

So do you have any evidence of when you bought a Railcard if you trawl bank statements? Given they usually last 12 months you'd be looking for a payment of £30 (I think) to where you may have bought one from - either train company or perhaps the Railcard website.

If you state what Railcard you think you had then people on here will know the price of said card around the time concerned - I don't think the prices have changed much in recent years for Railcards (unlike ticket prices).

If it was me, and if on the balance of probabilities I had bought tickets with the discount but might know or def'ly know I did not have the Railcard, I think I'd probably be paying up. But have you checked your ticket buying records to see if you did do that? Appreciate that's only easy if you have an online ticket buying record that you can access.

 

[Brissle Girl]

Did you buy it online? If so, there should still be a record of it on your account.

 

[Snow1964]

Worth checking back through bank statements or credit card statements. These are usually available online if you don't have paper versions.

Look for £30 to whatever rail company runs station if you bought it at at a station. Limited companies keep their till receipts for at least 6 years (for tax and vat reasons), even if they sit in a basement store room. If you can find the purchase then really up to other side to demonstrate not a railcard. (Very few rail tickets are exactly £30)

 

[guilbert]

Surely any prosecution would need to prove the OP didn't have a railcard rather than inviting them to prove they did (assuming they were entitled to one), which is going to be tricky if they weren't stopped? It seems highly unlikely to me they are going to take out a fraud prosecution but maybe it's worth £140 to remove the risk.

 

[superkopite]

I’ll spare the sob story but I left ‘railcard’ ticked accidentally when buying tickets. My railcard has been expired for a year and I don’t carry it anymore.

In your original post you said that your railcard had been expired for a year. So presumably you cannot produce evidence for anything prior to buying your most recent railcard. Where did you buy it from? Is it possible they think you have carried on offending as they are unable to match up your recent Trainline travel pattern and your new railcard?

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Surely any prosecution would need to prove the OP didn't have a railcard rather than inviting them to prove they did (assuming they were entitled to one), which is going to be tricky if they weren't stopped? It seems highly unlikely to me they are going to take out a fraud prosecution but maybe it's worth £140 to remove the risk.

Presumably the quantum of the fraud would be based on the total of discounts claimed (i.e. a third off every train fare) or (on the argument that no valid ticket was held) the cost of Anytime singles for all journeys. Either of these would likely be more than the £30 cost of the railcard.