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CCTV fitted to EC trains

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DaveNewcastle

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About 40 cameras on each EC train at a cost of £3.8million.

The programme begins with the HSTs and is scheduled to finish with the 225s in October. The fit out of security cameras and recorders is being done by Wabtec in Doncaster.
I must say that of all the operators, I find a compartively low level of crime and anti-social behaviour on EC services. Of course they're maybe just to assist RPIs in identifying where passengers get on and the catering manager to keep an eye on the stock on the trolley?
 
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Aictos

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As the staff notice at Peterborough says, this is a franchise commitment that CCTV must be fitted to the HST and 91 fleets and although on various sets you can see the CCTV - it won't be operational until further notice when a further notice will be posted to staff.

It's good that it's being done, I rarely see trouble on these trains but when it comes to Football Specials etc...then it's probably another kind of experience.
 

LondonLarry

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About 40 cameras on each EC train at a cost of £3.8million.

The programme begins with the HSTs and is scheduled to finish with the 225s in October. The fit out of security cameras and recorders is being done by Wabtec in Doncaster.
I must say that of all the operators, I find a compartively low level of crime and anti-social behaviour on EC services. Of course they're maybe just to assist RPIs in identifying where passengers get on and the catering manager to keep an eye on the stock on the trolley?

I think you get a different type of customer on Intercity services as they generally have longer stops and regular staff patrols throughout the journey. Commuter services with their frequent stops, people constantly getting on and off and, sometimes, areas they serve, means that they're more susceptible to vandalism.

I thought all their trains had been refurbished in the last 5 years - seems a bit expensive to retrofit CCTV now. I hope it's not being done at the taxpayer's expense!
 

DaveNewcastle

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I hope it's not being done at the taxpayer's expense!
You are perfectly entitled to hope that the taxpayer won't be paying - just as much as you might hope for good weather! ! !

Of course they do give staff some protection in the event of certain types of dispute after a passenger has been abusive (or worse). I just wish they would not be used to support an investigation into an employee's performance at work
 

silentone

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The CCTV will not be used to monitor or assess any employee's performance or assist with any investigation into an employee regarding a matter such as, for example, theft.

How exactly 'East Coast' is setup still seems to have escaped some folk. The taxpayer actually funds nothing on the route - the taxpayer paid to setup the company. The route is financially self supporting and this money is taken from ticket revenues etc.

The operation of the onboard CCTV is probably not how you imagine. The onboard crews will not have access to any monitor displaying the camera feeds. (This includes the driver, guard or catering staff).

The £3.8 million price tag for CCTV would also seem a bit excessive if it was purely to monitor theft off the trolley. This is not the reason it has been installed. On-board catering services have recently had a major operational change and additional investment was made to improve security of the catering vehicles to allow for this change to take place. Some will probably have noticed the new addition/s to the MK4 Buffet's.

40 camera's. On 41(?) trains? Ruffly 1640 camera's recording all day, everyday as each train goes up and down the country. Remote access/viewing would have to take place via the existing Wireless connection to each train. This system doesn't quite operate how you'd imagine.
 

DaveNewcastle

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Welcome to the forum, silentone.
The CCTV will not be used to monitor or assess any employee's performance or assist with any investigation into an employee regarding a matter such as, for example, theft.
Thanks for that assurance. Its very welcome. There are employees elsewhere who don't have such assurances.
. . . this money is taken from ticket revenues etc.
That too will doubtless be welcome news by taxpayers, EC passengers may still need a little persuasion tho. (see below)
The £3.8 million price tag for CCTV would also seem a bit excessive if it was purely to monitor theft off the trolley. This is not the reason it has been installed.
Ah, I'm afraid my attempts at humour don't always work over the internet. Must be off my trolley. Sigh.
On-board catering services have recently had a major operational change and additional investment was made to improve security of the catering vehicles to allow for this change to take place.
I'm a very great fan of EC catering - the "proper" restaurant service in particular, and I always make sure staff are aware of my appreciation. I'd use it more, though (and would plan in advance to use it with more enthusiasm), if there was a restaurant service on more services - including the return of the two-seating restaurant service for the benefit of more northern pax, and also on the Chieftan for those spending evening mealtime passing through the Highlands. A microwaved plastic platter with break-off plastic cutlery is NOT an improvement. Yes, I also acknowledge security has improved, but that works both ways - if the shutter lock is damaged, catering staff are going to close 30 mins earlier to stock-take. A very LARGE number of passengers (customers / diners) will experience a negative impact from a SMALL (and comparatively slight) defect. Yes, standards have recovered somewhat since NX days, and staff are much more positive, happy and helpful - its palpable, and I appreciate it - though the coffee isn't quite back to later GNER standards - yet! I wish it was - on the 5.25am off Newcastle, the present offering just isn't good enough. But to recall a BR slogan, I'd agree if you claimed "we're getting there".
This system doesn't quite operate how you'd imagine.
No, I don't think I really imagined it did for a moment. But its good to have you on here keeping us informed. You didn't seem to get round to mentioning what the real targeted outcomes are, for the CCTV installation, though - is it reduction in crime, disorder, protection of staff, revenue protection evidence, staff security evidence . . . . . any targets to impress us with?
Your comments have been much appreciated and hope to hear more from you soon. Especially with a summary of the benefits of this investment, thanks.
 
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142094

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Seconded here, going to Glasgow next month of advance 1st class tickets, and there is no at seat dining either way. Would be nice to have a meal at least in the evening, especially since its not even that late a train off Glasgow. Suppose I'll have to find somewhere in Glasgow for a bite to eat.
 

CarterUSM

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I'd love to believe they won't be used to do staff with. But i'd be suprised if they aren't. Seen it time and time again unfortunately.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I'd love to believe they won't be used to do staff with. But i'd be suprised if they aren't. Seen it time and time again unfortunately. Good place to eat 142094? Ichiban noodle cafe on Queen st just off Argyle street. I recommend it wholeheartedly. Japanese cuisine at it's best and inexpensive to say the least. I cannot get enough of the place.
 

CarterUSM

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Yes 90019, if they could get cameras in the cabs, management would be overjoyed. There's an interesting article about that particular threat in this months Red Alert, the popular Halcrow propaganda journal. Notwithstanding, it does occasionally also have some interesting operational topics within it's slim cover.
 

DaveNewcastle

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£634,000 cost of rebranding East Coast Main Line trains
Mar 17 2010 by William Green, The Journal
http://www.journallive.co.uk/north-east-news/todays-news/2010/03/17/634-000-cost-of-rebranding-east-coast-line-61634-26047472/
THE bill for “rebranding” trains on the East Coast Main Line after services were nationalised has run into hundreds of thousands of pounds.

The Department for Transport (DfT) has revealed that the cost for changing uniforms, logos on trains and even the website and stationary was £634,842.17 after previous private operator National Express hit financial trouble last year.

National Express paid £295,652.50 toward the bill under a contractual requirement to remove their branding from services – leaving new state-owned operator East Coast to pick up the rest of the tab.

And further rebranding has not been ruled out by the DfT in its response to a freedom of information request. It said any further changes were up to East Coast bosses.

Sir Alan Beith, Liberal Democrat MP for Berwick, said: “If the Government was doing what we wanted it to do and keep the East Coast line in the public sector for a reasonable time, then it might have been justified. But seeing they are trying to sell it as quickly as possible, it is money wasted that could have been spent on the railways, on services for passengers.”

But Tyne Bridge MP David Clelland, a member of the Commons transport committee, said: “I think that is buying the railway on the cheap, it is a bargain.”

The DfT revealed that £255,685 was spending on interiors and exteriors of trains, while uniforms cost £44,400.

More than £60,000 went on stationary, while just under £100,000 was spent on station signage and buildings such as offices and first class lounges. Some £30,000 was spending overhauling the route’s website.

In its response to the Freedom of Information request, the DfT said: “In the case of this transfer, the re-branding has been achieved as efficiently as possible to minimise the additional cost. In all respects, East Coast has taken a minimalistic approach to branding in recognition of the high potential cost involved and in appreciation of onward transfer to a successor operator within two years from now. An example of this minimalistic approach is where appropriate the ‘National Express’ lettering has been removed from ‘National Express East Coast’ wording leaving just ‘East Coast’.

“In addition, the design and the majority of the creative work supporting the East Coast brand has been developed in-house from existing resources from within the East Coast mobilisation team removing the need for excessive creative agency costs.”

A DfT spokesman said: “East Coast sought out the best deals available during the re-branding process to ensure value for money for taxpayers and – to keep costs even lower – not everything was re-branded. The East Coast brand was created to equip the company with the tools it needs to effectively promote and encourage more passengers to use its services.”
 

jon0844

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I would normally rant about how pointless many creative agencies are, charging a fortune for something a school child could do for free - but when you look at the East Coast logo, you do begin to see that sometimes they earn their keep!

Of course you need to spend money to make money, but I'm not sure they got that much value from some of the things listed above.
 

turbo mick

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The whole of the 165/166 FGW fleet have forward facing cameras fitted as well as in the train and its very good quality it helps the BTP etc with fatalitys etc and trespassing incidents and other issues

cheers

mick
 

Failed Unit

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The whole of the 165/166 FGW fleet have forward facing cameras fitted as well as in the train and its very good quality it helps the BTP etc with fatalitys etc and trespassing incidents and other issues

cheers

mick

I saw one on a class 91 DVT only this week, so it looks like they are coming to east coast as well.
 

ukrob

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Just to play devils advocate, why is there such outrage about them being used to catch staff out? Are you happy paying high fares to pay the wages of staff whoo don't do their jobs properly?

;)
 

Aictos

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I saw one on a class 91 DVT only this week, so it looks like they are coming to east coast as well.

Actually classed as a Mk4 DVT to be precise, the Class 91 is actually the traction.

But you are right in saying they're fitted to the cabs of East Coast's trains, actually started being fitted about January.
 

silentone

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Just to play devils advocate, why is there such outrage about them being used to catch staff out? Are you happy paying high fares to pay the wages of staff whoo don't do their jobs properly?
;)

The issue regarding staff & the CCTV has been discussed with unions. It is not possible to use the system to monitor staff anyway.

Both the DVT & 91 will have forward facing camera's installed.

The issue regarding locks in the catering vehicles has changed dramatically. All locks have been replaced and locking/unlocking the catering vehicle is now the first/last job to be undertaken by the Crew Leader. Any train which does not have a working lock on the catering vehicle will result in a change in how the catering service is delivered. Stock counts are no longer part of the handover of crews or part of the workings of the new system. Stockcounts do take place for terminating end of day services or during any circumstance which might prompt one... i.e sizeable theft. I won't get into the subject of annoucements of Stocking taking and cleaning - this is merely easier than explaining what is going on during a staff handover. Change of crews should be far quicker or at least improving at the moment.

I don't think it would be wise to discuss how the system operates but staff will be able to assist you/themselves should an incident occur that would require the use of CCTV.

Managers at East Coast HQ or line managers for that matter, will not simply be able to dial in and watch what's going on on any given train.

According to Elaine Holt there will be no more or no less dining services on East Coast as they have no plans to reduce the service. There have been suggestions that some full dining services may move to other services and there seems to be a lot of feedback regarding Standard Class passengers on services with At-Seat 1st Class Dining. As yet there are no changes but a new catering range is due for launch in April/May.
 

CarterUSM

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How is it not possible to monitor staff? Do you mean physically or it has been 'agreed' that it won't be used for that purpose? What is the system anyway? Is it one that takes a series of digital still images or continuous feed?
 

DaveNewcastle

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Thanks again silentone for info.

To be clear, I don't think anyone on here was suggesting that the CCTV would be used for real-time / dial-in monitoring. The concerns revolved around evidence gathering after an incident or other HR issue.

And to the (very, very) limited extent that this forum represents a cross-section of EC passengers, I hope you'll have detected a sincere and genuine demand for more catering offerings from EC (inc. restaurant facilities) and in continuing the improvements to date!

You have not yet answered the question of what targeted outcomes the installation of CCTV will aim to achieve. That will be helpful (That's not the same as asking how it will be used). I'm sure there will be some on here who might welcome the investment if the outcomes were understood and supported!
 
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silentone

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The system is being installed to improve security for both staff & passengers. There are incidents which do occur onboard that are often not made public, why would they?

There was an incident recently of a passenger attacking fellow passengers, staff and causing interior damage to a set. There are also a large number of cases of onboard catering staff & guards being punched/hit & spat at. I'm sure it's a comfort to passengers to know there is a system in place to protect them.

In reply to CarterUSM, As I have already said the system cannot be used to monitor staff, there is nothing further I can add to that to make it clearer. The system is a continuous feed with the recording equipment stored onboard.

There's plenty of rumours around about the installation. The most common is that managers will be able to view the feeds while sitting in their offices. Thus allowing them to monitor their crew working onboard. If you are a member of staff for the company then I can only again repeat the system cannot be used to monitor staff. The system is designed to protect staff & passengers and provide visual evidence of any incident which may take place onboard.
 

DaveNewcastle

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There's plenty of rumours around about the installation.
Which is the usual way in which knowledge-vacuums are filled; such as when a company commits to doing something but forgets to explain what the purpose is!
So thanks for explaining. That's what I wanted to learn. A few more specific targets and expected outcomes might dispell even more fears.
The most common is that managers will be able to view the feeds while sitting in their offices. Thus allowing them to monitor their crew working onboard.
I for one never, ever imagined that - but until the purpose had been stated, its not surprising that some might fear the worst.

My view? I think EC staff provide amongst the best customer service on UK railways, and I wouldn't wish to see staff or passengers suffer abuse, harm or unsubstantiated accusations. No problem there.
I do profoundly regret that our culture has favoured CCTV as one of the leading instruments in managing crime and disorder. I wish it was otherwise, but that's no more a railway matter than one of general society.
I also regret the performance and blame culture with inexperienced management that operates in many industry sectors; including UK railways; this often fuels fear or contept, distrust and conflict; these qualities do not support effective relations within staff and with customers - CCTV can and does compound those negative aspects of the culture. I'm sure CarterUSM is very aware of that potential for negative outcomes.
Lets hope his doubts are unjustified?
 

CarterUSM

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Thank you also for your information and honesty silentone, and forgive my gloomy and negative responses to the whole issue. It is just that I have heard this information before when cctv is about to be fitted to a fleet of trains. I do genuinely hope nothing I have mentioned ever comes to pass and that the system is a resounding success for all concerned.
 
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