Changes to Hazel Grove/Chinley from May

[323235]

Just been flicking through some of the May timetables on RTT and it seems that they are again trying to put unachievable timings on DMU services

E.g some weekday Buxton services will only have 11 minutes to get to Stockport which anyone who travels on a Sunday will know always makes them late departing Stockport because it is impossible for a DMU to get to Levenshume , drop out and go in 5 minutes.

Does anyone know if the high speed turn out from the DF? to DS? at Slade Lane (Stockport bound) has ever been considered as a flashing aspect junction, as the approach control seems to slow things down unnecessarily.

 

[Greybeard33]

After looking at RTT again I am not convinced that the 17:23 Piccadilly to Hazel Grove will be operated by an EMU, as suggested in the OP of this thread. It is pathed as a Pacer, and I cannot find any ECS working that could bring a 319 into Piccadilly to form the service. The 323s are all required for other services during the evening peak.

I think it is more likely that the 17:23 will become a 2-car 142. The truncation to Hazel Grove will not be to keep it under the wires, but rather to reduce demand in order to enable release of one of the pair of 142s that currently form the 4-car working to Chinley. Northern will likely redeploy the second 142 to release an additional Sprinter for Blackpool/Barrow services, (partially) replacing the 185 that TPE will use to strengthen the 17:18 Piccadilly to Cleethorpes to 6-car. As a "quid pro quo", the TPE service will make an additional stop at Chinley in place of the truncated Northern service.

It looks to me as though the unit to form 2H02 to Hazel Grove will arrive in Piccadilly Platform 5 at 16:51, as the lead unit in 3H02, a 6-car ECS working from Newton Heath. The rear unit, a 150, will form 2H00, the 16:58 to Hazel Grove, while the remaining pair of 142s will shunt to Platform 3 (move not shown in RTT). The outer one will form 2D42, the 17:09 to Chester, leaving the last unit to form 2H02, the 17:23 to Hazel Grove.

From Hazel Grove it will run ECS as 5H02 to Stockport Carriage MD, as does the current Chinley diagram.

 

[tom1649]

Northern's new Timetable 23 (Hope Valley Line) shows the 17.23 as running to Chinley. The Buxton timetable, however, doesn't.

 

[Thomas6187]

5H87 15:17 arr from Longsight will probable be two 323s, one for the 16:31 Hadfield and the other for 17:23 Hazel Grove.

3H02 16:51 arr from Newton Heath will be three units, one for 16:58 Hazel Grove and two for 17:05 Marple. The 17:09 Chester is worked by the 16:56 from Rose Hill. This is what happens in the current timetable.

5H66 from Newton Heath will form the 16:23 Marple. At the moment this is the service booked for 4X142 that form the 16:23/17:23

Also the platforming shown on RTT is usually taken from Network Rail Planning, and will be changed to a more workable plan by MPSCC. Happens every timetable change

 

[Haydn1971]

The 1655 from Manchester Airport is already absolutely packed without any Chinley passengers. I doubt there's any room for them...

Edit: sorry, kwvr34 beat me to it!

Leaving people behind at Piccadilly is bad news. There's always a crowd for Stockport > Sheffield and beyond, many of whom are sold Advance (£8.30 without discount for most every day in May and June) tickets and will be forced to wait an hour if they can't get on. Additionally there may be a few who use the current train for Stockport to Chinley.

These passengers are also likely to end up on the 17:43 EMT service instead, which currently in the summer is ok, but come Sep-Jan is really over subscribed

 

[Greybeard33]

So if all this is correct the 1718 will be formed of 6 cars instead of 3 today, which ought to get rid of the overcrowding problem and provide some space for the extra Chinley passengers.

Doubles all round!

These passengers are also likely to end up on the 17:43 EMT service instead, which currently in the summer is ok, but come Sep-Jan is really over subscribed

Will the three extra carriages on the 17:18 not be enough to take the extra Chinley passengers? Surely most of them will manage to get to Piccadilly 5 minutes earlier than before?

5H87 15:17 arr from Longsight will probable be two 323s, one for the 16:31 Hadfield and the other for 17:23 Hazel Grove.

3H02 16:51 arr from Newton Heath will be three units, one for 16:58 Hazel Grove and two for 17:05 Marple. The 17:09 Chester is worked by the 16:56 from Rose Hill. This is what happens in the current timetable.

5H66 from Newton Heath will form the 16:23 Marple. At the moment this is the service booked for 4X142 that form the 16:23/17:23

Also the platforming shown on RTT is usually taken from Network Rail Planning, and will be changed to a more workable plan by MPSCC. Happens every timetable change

So which of the current 323 diagrams will become 319-worked in order to free up a 323 for this service?

 

[Haydn1971]

Will the three extra carriages on the 17:18 not be enough to take the extra Chinley passengers? Surely most of them will manage to get to Piccadilly 5 minutes earlier than before?

That's assuming the three extra carriages are provided of course

 

[Thomas6187]

So which of the current 323 diagrams will become 319-worked in order to free up a 323 for this service?

The extra 323 is the one that used to do the Airport Shuttle, which is has been a been a 319 since December. That extra 323 currently just works the 07:15 Macclesfield-Piccadilly, then goes back to Longsight for the rest of the day.

 

[Greybeard33]

The extra 323 is the one that used to do the Airport Shuttle, which is has been a been a 319 since December. That extra 323 currently just works the 07:15 Macclesfield-Piccadilly, then goes back to Longsight for the rest of the day.

That could explain why 5H15, the ECS to Macclesfield that forms 2H15, the 07:15 to Piccadilly, starts from Stockport CMD instead of Longsight after the timetable change.

Before the Airport Shuttle became 319-worked, a DMU had to take over one of the Alderley Edge diagrams whenever an additional 323 was out of service for any reason. Presumably the reason 2H15 and 2H02 are pathed for DMUs is that they will now become first in line for DMU substitution?

 

[Eboordna]

I can confirm the 16:55 MIA-CLE will be a 6 car from MAN-CLE on Mon-Thu. On a Friday it's still a 3 car as the 185s are needed for Glasgow services.

 

[gimmea50anyday]

TPE have made a modification to the 185s to allow the rear 2 coaches to be kept locked at short platforms.

What is this modification you speak of? As an occasional stopper at Seamer, Warrington, Yarm and Chester Le Street with 6 on I am not aware of any such modification that precludes me from using my T-key....

 

[Thomas6187]

BTW, the 17:23 Piccadilly-Hazel Grove is formed by 2H11 08:56 from Stoke. It booked to stable all day on Platform 12

 

[northwichcat]

So has the 07:15 Macclesfield-Manchester gone back to DMUs? If so where has the 323 (previously used on the Airport shuttle) gone in the morning peak?

 

[Thomas6187]

The Morning Macclesfield is still a 323, which then goes to Longsight

 

[sonic2009]

BTW, the 17:23 Piccadilly-Hazel Grove is formed by 2H11 08:56 from Stoke. It booked to stable all day on Platform 12

Nothing else it could do in the meantime?

 

[Thomas6187]

Not really, but its good to have a hot spare

 

[Greybeard33]

I can confirm the 16:55 MIA-CLE will be a 6 car from MAN-CLE on Mon-Thu. On a Friday it's still a 3 car as the 185s are needed for Glasgow services.

From RTT it appears that the strengthening of the 1718 Piccadilly to Cleethorpes did not happen today. 5B86 from Ardwick to Piccadilly was cancelled "due to a delay not investigated".

 

[louis97]

From RTT it appears that the strengthening of the 1718 Piccadilly to Cleethorpes did not happen today. 5B86 from Ardwick to Piccadilly was cancelled "due to a delay not investigated".

5B86 isn't the booked attachment by the looks of it. 1K19 arriving at 1634 is the booked attachment by the looks of it. The 1641 to Hull is then formed by a set from the depot.

I'm not sure that ECS is even required - be interesting to see if it operates tomorrow.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

What is this modification you speak of? As an occasional stopper at Seamer, Warrington, Yarm and Chester Le Street with 6 on I am not aware of any such modification that precludes me from using my T-key....

Read about it in one of the many railway magazines at work, perhaps making out something that it isn't? Suggested a new system allowing 6 car trains to call at stations with short platforms with all coaches in use. (What currently happens, front four coaches?)

 

[Starmill]

The 1718 was definitely a 6-car today. I stood on the platform and watched it go. There were only a handful of seats available.

 

[northwichcat]

From RTT it appears that the strengthening of the 1718 Piccadilly to Cleethorpes did not happen today. 5B86 from Ardwick to Piccadilly was cancelled "due to a delay not investigated".

Looks like the unit off a 16:21 Ardwick-Piccadilly ECS worked the 16:41 Piccadilly-Hull alone, with the unit off the 16:34 arrival from Hull going in to platform 5 and being attached to the Airport-Cleethorpes service.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Nothing else it could do in the meantime?

More units are always going to be needed at peak times than at off-peak times. If you only have enough electric units to cover the standard pattern electric services then they'll be a lot of DMUs under the wires at peak times.

 

[Starmill]

Two updates on the 1718 from Manchester Piccadilly: it's still full. I had to stand, along with a large number of others on it this evening, and that was in the front unit.

The second is that fewer than 20 people got off at Chinley. There were still loads of people standing up on departure.

 

[northwichcat]

The second is that fewer than 20 people got off at Chinley. There were still loads of people standing up on departure.

Personally I've never seen the fuss about Chinley getting 3tph from Manchester in the evening peak period. While some people argue about how much usage Chinley gets compared to it's size, it's very low compared to many stations in the Manchester commuter area and when paths and capacity are very short in supply I don't get the big fuss about an additional service between the Northern Sheffield one and the EMT one which stops there.

 

[tom1649]

Has anyone seen the lesser-spotted 323 at Hazel Grove yet?

 

[Bungle965]

Has anyone seen the lesser-spotted 323 at Hazel Grove yet?

Here is the service at Hazel Grove on the first day of the new timetable.
Sam

 

[palmersears]

And to confirm it wasn't a fluke I saw 323239 working it tonight. Wasn't particularly well loaded at Stockport, but it was a Friday.

Seeing it at Hazel Grove takes me back some 16 years to when they worked out of the station regularly, used to get them on a Saturday with my Dad as we went to Manchester for a 'boys day out.'

 

[northwichcat]

And to confirm it wasn't a fluke I saw 323239 working it tonight. Wasn't particularly well loaded at Stockport, but it was a Friday.

Ideally Northern should have FO diagrams as some of the strengthened short services have very low loadings on Friday evenings while some of the longer services which aren't strengthened get a lot of extra passengers on Friday evenings.

Seeing it at Hazel Grove takes me back some 16 years to when they worked out of the station regularly, used to get them on a Saturday with my Dad as we went to Manchester for a 'boys day out.'

The destination displays have changed since - to more old fashioned blinds.

(It is only 8 years since they worked every other service at Hazel Grove in case anyone thinks they've just come out of a coma after reading that.)

 

[Bungle965]

Ideally Northern should have FO diagrams as some of the strengthened short services have very low loadings on Friday evenings while some of the longer services which aren't strengthened get a lot of extra passengers on Friday evenings.



The destination displays have changed since - to more old fashioned blinds.

(It is only 8 years since they worked every other service at Hazel Grove in case anyone thinks they've just come out of a coma after reading that.)

I seem to remember the destination blinds being the flip-dot display ones but they never seemed to be working. No wonder Northern went back to manual ones.
Sam

 

[northwichcat]

I seem to remember the destination blinds being the flip-dot display ones but they never seemed to be working. No wonder Northern went back to manual ones.
Sam

They lasted over 10 years and did include middle of the train displays. Initially Northern fitted blinds, like they had on most of the DMUs at the time, which didn't have most of the electric destinations so they could show Manchester or Manchester Airport but if they were heading anywhere else they could only show a wrong destination or a blank display. I seem to recall the Piccadilly drivers frequently using Stockport on the display if the service was going via Stockport.

 

[evergreenadam]

What effect is the new timetable/stock rotation from introduction of class 319s having on peak overcrowding in the North West? Still as bad as before? Which services still need strengthening?

 

[northwichcat]

What effect is the new timetable/stock rotation from introduction of class 319s having on peak overcrowding in the North West? Still as bad as before? Which services still need strengthening?

The 319s haven't done a lot to reduce overcrowding. The problem is some of the services they appear on didn't really need extra capacity (or were already 4 carriages prior to electrification), while most of the DMUs released have had to be used to compensate for the loss of the 185s on North West routes to cover the loss of 170s on North and South TPE. Although, I suppose the Airport-Blackpool has benefited from extra capacity (2 x 156s replacing 1 x 185), even if the rolling stock standard has been downgraded.