Changing at Reading - and other topics...

[coppercapped]

Rather than derail the Class 800 thread in the Traction and Rolling Stock Forum any further I thought I'd start this new thread to continue the discussions on connections and traffic at Reading and leave the Class 800 thread to concentrate on the hardware.

I'm not a "train spotter", or at least I haven't stood on a platform with a book since I was aged under 10! Your posts are normally so well informed (even if I don't agree with your very strongly pro-commercial perspective nor about Reading), so this bit of childishness is unwelcome.

The reason I dislike HEx is that it is a waste of paths that could be used to far better ends once Crossrail becomes more convenient for everyone, as it likely will.

I apologise for the slight, it wasn't intended.

We have had this debate about HEx before and i cannot understand your dislike of it. I think that it is an excellent service and it fulfils a market need for fast and comfortable links between the middle of London and its main airport. I have lived and worked in both Paris and Munich and using the airport rail links in both cities is a pain - they stop frequently and are not really designed to cope with air travellers' luggage. When I was in Paris the RER station was /between/ Aerogare 1 and Aerogare 2 and from either terminal it was necessary to take a bus first. In Munich it used to take me more than an hour to reach my local station of Pasing by S-Bahn, regardless of which of the two routes I took. This was about the same length of time as the flight from London... Getting off the last flight on Sunday night I frequently took a taxi from the airport although it cost five times as much but I could be back at my flat in 30 minutes.

Stopping trains to airports are BAD NEWS.

As to the waste of paths. As long as the service pays its way then there can be no objection to the service continuing - with the possible proviso that the opportunity costs of another (longer distance) service using the paths to and from Airport Junction generates more income for Network Rail. However the presence of the HEx trains means that Slough (all day) and Maidenhead, and to a lesser extent Twyford, can be served by fast trains from Paddington without holding up the train immediately behind. One could argue that with the advent of Crossrail these stops are a luxury which can be given up - but all that would do is ensure that even more people from these areas have to suffer slower journeys.

Why is it a given that the needs of people travelling further should outweigh those of shorter distance passengers?

But he does have a point. Continue their journeys to where? There isn`t anywhere that couldn`t be served from other stations from the West except maybe Oxford. The Gatwick GWR trains are so slow you`d be better off going to Paddington Victoria anyway.

This I don't understand, 'where?' is a big place. I have assumed that the reference to 'West of England' trains referred to those from (points west of) Exeter using the Berks and Hants to Reading and London, not those routed via Bristol or the slower Southern services from Exeter via Salisbury and Basingstoke to Waterloo.
All three routes serve the same end points but have different frequencies, intermediate calling points and connection patterns.
Changing at Reading off eastbound trains will link to local services to Didcot and Oxford, Cross-Country services to Oxford, Banbury, Leamington (avoiding a doubling back from Birmingham New Street), quite large and busy towns such as Maidenhead, Slough, Wokingham, Bracknell, Staines and stations on the Guildford route serving the huge area of business and housing around Blackwater and Camberley as well as the Railair coach service to Heathrow. Getting to the housing and industrial areas south of Heathrow at Staines, Ashford and Feltham off the ex-LSWR route if coming from the West Country is a non-trivial exercise - it's much easier from Reading.
If one is travelling to Gatwick alone with just an overnight bag, then the Paddington - Circle Line - Victoria route is acceptable. Using this route with two or more people and bags is a pain in the proverbial, have you tried getting bags down the narrow stairway to the Circle Line station in Praed Street? The same journey is much easier with one change at Reading with lifts to all platforms. Horses for courses.
The same thing happens in the reverse direction.

So 'where?' is quite big.

Say that when the so and so`s cram into already packed trains from the West because they cannot be bothered using the other services available.
I agree there should be longer trains West of Reading.

This is about class 800`s.

'Cannot be bothered', why be so dismissive about people trying to earn a living and get home at the end of the day? Are you clear that 'the other services available' take twice as long to reach the destination than the one you are trying to cram in to and will similarly be crammed by the time they reach their destination? In both cases people will be crammed in for 20 minutes or so, but using the fast train they will have reached their destination in that time.

 

[Kite159]

For some they see the HEX as a waste of time, as they would prefer for Heathrow passengers arriving by train from points west to have to go downstairs to Paddington low-level, wait around for a Heathrow bound Metro-spec 345 to roll in with minimal dwell times. To end up standing by their suitcase on a busy service calling at the commuter stations along the way, maybe getting a seat after Southall if they are lucky. Great advert for use of a taxi.

Compared to today where they can change from their long distance service at Paddington, head towards the HEX platforms where they can board the train, stow the luggage in racks provided and have a non-stop service to Heathrow. Heathrow is like Stansted in being special cases where the airports are off branch lines, compared to Gatwick which has regular 'non-premium' services calling there

Low budget travellers won't necessary be using Heathrow full stop, but if they were they would use the bus.

 

[Esker-pades]

Re. the Heathrow Express:
The assumption that one can replace the paths used by HX by other services is flawed. Trains going to Reading on the Fasts at the time of the HX services would run into the back of the trains stopping at Slough pretty quickly. That messes up the timetable.

 

[ABB125]

If, once (if!) Heathrow Southern Access is built and Heathrow Express becomes a Paddington-Heathrow-Basingstoke(-beyond?), I think most of the arguments regarding Heathrow Express being a waste will be no longer applicable.

 

[MarkyT]

Compared to today where they can change from their long distance service at Paddington, head towards the HEX platforms where they can board the train, stow the luggage in racks provided and have a non-stop service to Heathrow. Heathrow is like Stansted in being special cases where the airports are off branch lines, compared to Gatwick which has regular 'non-premium' services calling there
Low budget travellers won't necessary be using Heathrow full stop, but if they were they would use the bus.

Or the tube from central London. I have never travelled in from the west to get an express back to the airport. My preference has always been to take the Railair coach from Reading, because its usually quicker and always considerably cheaper than paying extra into London then the premium fare on HEX. The western rail connection from Reading should improve on this, especially by improving the journey time resilience when the M4 is busy or disrupted. Heathrow is big enough to warrant an express from London as well as a local service making more calls en route I think, but the Elizabeth line will be a great success and very convenient for many people so I think HEX needs to do more to survive while keeping its Express character. I think it should extend to Southern destinations via the link proposed to Woking and beyond. Probably optimally only as far as Basingstoke and Guildford though rather than projecting very much further, and primarily to keep the operation small, tight, and thus resilient. An additional stop at OOC could also allow the service to act as a feeder to HS2 from those parts of the home counties as well as giving HS2 it's premium link to the airport. People would still be able to make a very convenient interchange onto HEX at Basingstoke, Guildford or Woking to get to the airport from further afield in the SW. The 'shadow paths' that allow Main line calls at Slough, Maidenhead etc. are a very worthwhile side effect of the expresses turning off to Heathrow and should help to 'peak bust' the Elizabeth at the busiest times and stations. Remember the lighter 387s, which will be operating pretty much all the Main (fast) line services that are not 80xs, should comfortably be able to match Hitachi acceleration performance under the wires. Although they can't quite manage the same top speed on longer runs, on many shorter point to point segments the Bombardiers will at least be the Hitachis' equals. It's not Thames Turbo vs HST anymore.

 

[JonathanH]

Re. the Heathrow Express:
The assumption that one can replace the paths used by HX by other services is flawed. Trains going to Reading on the Fasts at the time of the HX services would run into the back of the trains stopping at Slough pretty quickly. That messes up the timetable.

In theory the Slough stops could be removed. Stands to reason that if the original premise of this thread was that Reading stops should be reduced you would imagine that Slough stops should be culled too (and Didcot / Newbury for that matter).

In early Turbo days, c.1993, the Oxfords crossed to the slow lines at Slough to get out of the way of South Wales trains - there were fewer relief line services at that time.

 

[Ianno87]

Re. the Heathrow Express:
The assumption that one can replace the paths used by HX by other services is flawed. Trains going to Reading on the Fasts at the time of the HX services would run into the back of the trains stopping at Slough pretty quickly. That messes up the timetable.

In theory the Slough stops could be removed. Stands to reason that if the original premise of this thread was that Reading stops should be reduced you would imagine that Slough stops should be culled too (and Didcot / Newbury for that matter).

In early Turbo days, c.1993, the Oxfords crossed to the slow lines at Slough to get out of the way of South Wales trains - there were fewer relief line services at that time.

There are no peak period calls on the Main Lines at Slough, so the HEx paths wouldn't run into the back of anything in the peak.

 

[Kite159]

There are no peak period calls on the Main Lines at Slough, so the HEx paths wouldn't run into the back of anything in the peak.

However there are peak time services which call at the likes of Maidenhead or Twyford

 

[JonathanH]

However there are peak time services which call at the likes of Maidenhead or Twyford

...and the crossover at Maidenhead is not a high speed one.

 

[cactustwirly]

In theory the Slough stops could be removed. Stands to reason that if the original premise of this thread was that Reading stops should be reduced you would imagine that Slough stops should be culled too (and Didcot / Newbury for that matter).

In early Turbo days, c.1993, the Oxfords crossed to the slow lines at Slough to get out of the way of South Wales trains - there were fewer relief line services at that time.

Great idea! Extend the journey time of one of the most lucrative and busiest passenger flows on the GWML!

 

[adrock1976]

Re. the Heathrow Express:
The assumption that one can replace the paths used by HX by other services is flawed. Trains going to Reading on the Fasts at the time of the HX services would run into the back of the trains stopping at Slough pretty quickly. That messes up the timetable.

In theory the Slough stops could be removed. Stands to reason that if the original premise of this thread was that Reading stops should be reduced you would imagine that Slough stops should be culled too (and Didcot / Newbury for that matter).

In early Turbo days, c.1993, the Oxfords crossed to the slow lines at Slough to get out of the way of South Wales trains - there were fewer relief line services at that time.

As this is the Great Western Railway that is being discussed, I would like to mention that there is no such thing as "Fast Lines" or Slow Lines" at all in track layout terms.

They are "Main Lines" and "Relief Lines" (although to be fair to JonathanH, it does mention the correct term near the end of the second paragraph).

 

[Techniquest]

*Juliano's ears pricked up when hearing discussion about budget travelling*

Low budget travellers won't necessary be using Heathrow full stop, but if they were they would use the bus.

Now that's a dangerous assumption! I travel the world on a budget, as has been widely discussed both on this forum and on my blog (techsworldfrenzy.wordpress.com) with its many reports. I'm always interested in discussing budget travel, and I found this thread rather interesting. The rest of your post made good points, but here comes the viewpoint from this semi-norm!

I'm very fortunate that I have multiple choices for getting to Heathrow. By no means is this list exhaustive, there are many options I could choose if I really wanted to:

1) National Express coach direct from Hereford to Heathrow Central Bus Station. By far the most sensible for me, with no changes, a guaranteed and comfortable seat, power socket, excellent legroom and free on-board entertainment via NX's Vuer app. Fares are usually very reasonable too, even at fairly short notice. As a result, on the few occasions I need to use Heathrow, this is by far my first choice.

2) GWR services from Hereford to London Paddington via Evesham, changing onto Heathrow Express. By some measure the second-most expensive option, but if splitting at Paddington it can be done for reasonable money if booking a fair way in advance on GWR.

3) TfW services from Hereford to Newport and GWR onwards to London Paddington and onto Heathrow Express. The most expensive route, especially if not doing so off-peak!

4) Either of the above rail routes to Paddington then onto Heathrow Connect (or is this now TfL?) to Heathrow. Still an expensive option but more affordable. Not the most enjoyable one though, especially with luggage, but it does grant me travel via my favourite station in all the world in the form of London Paddington, which makes it desirable. Only if Advance fares are reasonable though!

5) Stagecoach West bus Hereford to Gloucester then onto National Express to Heathrow. Not the most desirable, although it can often be the cheapest by some measure, as the route to Gloucester takes quite some time from Hereford.

6) WMR Hereford to Birmingham, LNWR Birmingham to London Euston, then onto the Piccadilly line to Heathrow. If on a £9 Advance on the Hereford to London WMR/LNWR Only routing, then I can get to Heathrow and back for less than £25 including the LU fare. The cheapest route for sure, but it does take a while, I estimate that to be about 5.5 hours each way.

7) Not yet done this one, but either the trains via Newport or via Evesham to Reading and onto RailAir to Heathrow Airport. This does have the disadvantage of dealing with the enormous Reading station, and with luggage this can be less than fun.

8) Trains via either route to Reading, then a local service to Hayes & Harlington and onto the Heathrow branch to the airport. When I needed to do that journey from Heathrow almost exactly a year ago, even going via Evesham it was about £46 single off-peak. Granted, that was a walk-up fare. Due to the time I needed to travel, that meant a change at H&H, Reading and Worcester. I had no luggage of note with me, but it didn't appeal.

9) The craziest route I have available is Stagecoach West buses Hereford-Gloucester-Cheltenham-Swindon for just £7 on a Day Explorer fare. Swindon to Heathrow would be rather expensive though, and the buses bit would take a good few hours!

10) Talking of Swindon, my final option would be Hereford to Gloucester by bus and onto GWR onwards to Reading/London. Connections in Gloucester can be very awkward though, so it negates the cheapness.

As I said way up this post, that list is by no means exhaustive. Other options via Bristol, Newport or Birmingham are certainly available, but I could go on for ages about them I'm sure. The point is that for much of the country Heathrow is still very much an option on a budget. Say one is travelling from the Manchester area to Heathrow, the primary budget option by rail is a Northern Advance to Crewe and a LNWR Advance to Euston for the Piccadilly line to Heathrow. That can be done for less than £25 one-way, and when one factors in the distance that is very reasonable. Travelling from Suffolk to Heathrow? I have zero doubts I could find a way to make that a cheap journey! As they say, where there's a will, there's a way!

Low budget travellers not choosing Heathrow? Well that simply isn't true. Somewhere in this post I mention that I explore the world regularly on a budget, although I have had some assistance in the form of birthday/Christmas money as well as my credit card. Even so, I've already done 4 countries on a budget this year. There remain plans to make that 5 before the summer, not to mention another long-haul trip on a budget in 2019. Where there's a will...

I'm getting distracted here by the Trip Planning Process side of my brain, so let's get back on track...Those of you with good memories will remember I did Estonia in October 2018, for the very reasonable sum of just £209 for Heathrow to Tallinn and return flights on BA. That price included my accommodation in a rather decent budget hotel too! Yes that BA Holidays deal was booked 5 and a bit months in advance, but for a budget trip out of and into Heathrow that was incredible! My point here being even low budget travellers like myself can and do choose Heathrow. Quite, I ensured my Canada trip involved Heathrow on the way home too, which made it more expensive than flying back into Gatwick, but it had to be done. Believe it or not, it's cheaper to get to/from Heathrow than it is to use Gatwick from here! Oh, and travelling to Heathrow is far more exciting than travelling to Gatwick. That's a whole other discussion though...

Let's wrap this up though with a quick thought on Reading. I like the new station, yes, but I found the old one easier to change at. Changing at Reading in my experience is more of a mission than making a +5 at Birmingham New Street. If a journey planner gives me anything less than a +12 at Reading, especially if I know it's a trek from say platform 11 to the eastern end bays, then I'd rather find a different route. I've even found myself in the past looking up coaches for the entire journey instead of going by rail, purely because the change at Reading is too much of a mission.

Granted, that was in the days before I power-marched everywhere, so these days even with a suitcase I'd probably of the 'Challenge Accepted' viewpoint and take on that +5!

 

[cactustwirly]

*Juliano's ears pricked up when hearing discussion about budget travelling*



Now that's a dangerous assumption! I travel the world on a budget, as has been widely discussed both on this forum and on my blog (techsworldfrenzy.wordpress.com) with its many reports. I'm always interested in discussing budget travel, and I found this thread rather interesting. The rest of your post made good points, but here comes the viewpoint from this semi-norm!

I'm very fortunate that I have multiple choices for getting to Heathrow. By no means is this list exhaustive, there are many options I could choose if I really wanted to:

1) National Express coach direct from Hereford to Heathrow Central Bus Station. By far the most sensible for me, with no changes, a guaranteed and comfortable seat, power socket, excellent legroom and free on-board entertainment via NX's Vuer app. Fares are usually very reasonable too, even at fairly short notice. As a result, on the few occasions I need to use Heathrow, this is by far my first choice.

2) GWR services from Hereford to London Paddington via Evesham, changing onto Heathrow Express. By some measure the second-most expensive option, but if splitting at Paddington it can be done for reasonable money if booking a fair way in advance on GWR.

3) TfW services from Hereford to Newport and GWR onwards to London Paddington and onto Heathrow Express. The most expensive route, especially if not doing so off-peak!

4) Either of the above rail routes to Paddington then onto Heathrow Connect (or is this now TfL?) to Heathrow. Still an expensive option but more affordable. Not the most enjoyable one though, especially with luggage, but it does grant me travel via my favourite station in all the world in the form of London Paddington, which makes it desirable. Only if Advance fares are reasonable though!

5) Stagecoach West bus Hereford to Gloucester then onto National Express to Heathrow. Not the most desirable, although it can often be the cheapest by some measure, as the route to Gloucester takes quite some time from Hereford.

6) WMR Hereford to Birmingham, LNWR Birmingham to London Euston, then onto the Piccadilly line to Heathrow. If on a £9 Advance on the Hereford to London WMR/LNWR Only routing, then I can get to Heathrow and back for less than £25 including the LU fare. The cheapest route for sure, but it does take a while, I estimate that to be about 5.5 hours each way.

7) Not yet done this one, but either the trains via Newport or via Evesham to Reading and onto RailAir to Heathrow Airport. This does have the disadvantage of dealing with the enormous Reading station, and with luggage this can be less than fun.

8) Trains via either route to Reading, then a local service to Hayes & Harlington and onto the Heathrow branch to the airport. When I needed to do that journey from Heathrow almost exactly a year ago, even going via Evesham it was about £46 single off-peak. Granted, that was a walk-up fare. Due to the time I needed to travel, that meant a change at H&H, Reading and Worcester. I had no luggage of note with me, but it didn't appeal.

9) The craziest route I have available is Stagecoach West buses Hereford-Gloucester-Cheltenham-Swindon for just £7 on a Day Explorer fare. Swindon to Heathrow would be rather expensive though, and the buses bit would take a good few hours!

10) Talking of Swindon, my final option would be Hereford to Gloucester by bus and onto GWR onwards to Reading/London. Connections in Gloucester can be very awkward though, so it negates the cheapness.

As I said way up this post, that list is by no means exhaustive. Other options via Bristol, Newport or Birmingham are certainly available, but I could go on for ages about them I'm sure. The point is that for much of the country Heathrow is still very much an option on a budget. Say one is travelling from the Manchester area to Heathrow, the primary budget option by rail is a Northern Advance to Crewe and a LNWR Advance to Euston for the Piccadilly line to Heathrow. That can be done for less than £25 one-way, and when one factors in the distance that is very reasonable. Travelling from Suffolk to Heathrow? I have zero doubts I could find a way to make that a cheap journey! As they say, where there's a will, there's a way!

Low budget travellers not choosing Heathrow? Well that simply isn't true. Somewhere in this post I mention that I explore the world regularly on a budget, although I have had some assistance in the form of birthday/Christmas money as well as my credit card. Even so, I've already done 4 countries on a budget this year. There remain plans to make that 5 before the summer, not to mention another long-haul trip on a budget in 2019. Where there's a will...

I'm getting distracted here by the Trip Planning Process side of my brain, so let's get back on track...Those of you with good memories will remember I did Estonia in October 2018, for the very reasonable sum of just £209 for Heathrow to Tallinn and return flights on BA. That price included my accommodation in a rather decent budget hotel too! Yes that BA Holidays deal was booked 5 and a bit months in advance, but for a budget trip out of and into Heathrow that was incredible! My point here being even low budget travellers like myself can and do choose Heathrow. Quite, I ensured my Canada trip involved Heathrow on the way home too, which made it more expensive than flying back into Gatwick, but it had to be done. Believe it or not, it's cheaper to get to/from Heathrow than it is to use Gatwick from here! Oh, and travelling to Heathrow is far more exciting than travelling to Gatwick. That's a whole other discussion though...

Let's wrap this up though with a quick thought on Reading. I like the new station, yes, but I found the old one easier to change at. Changing at Reading in my experience is more of a mission than making a +5 at Birmingham New Street. If a journey planner gives me anything less than a +12 at Reading, especially if I know it's a trek from say platform 11 to the eastern end bays, then I'd rather find a different route. I've even found myself in the past looking up coaches for the entire journey instead of going by rail, purely because the change at Reading is too much of a mission.

Granted, that was in the days before I power-marched everywhere, so these days even with a suitcase I'd probably of the 'Challenge Accepted' viewpoint and take on that +5!

The vast majority of budget travellers will be using Gatwick or Stansted.
Heathrow is very much oriented towards business travellers.

 

[Techniquest]

The vast majority of budget travellers will be using Gatwick or Stansted.
Heathrow is very much oriented towards business travellers.

Biggest load of tosh I've heard this month. Besides, you're forgetting about Luton

Heathrow has a mega-ton of leisure passengers, from all corners of the land. Even if a lot of them are on connecting flights from elsewhere! The airport does have a lot of expensive shops, yes, compared to the likes of Birmingham, Manchester, Edinburgh, Luton and Stansted, but to suggest Heathrow is an airport aimed at business travellers and not the leisure market is just nonsense.

To me, that's like saying all Americans are obese. A totally inaccurate statement! Or that all beer tastes the same. Another inaccurate statement. Yes I know you're not saying either of those, I merely provide them as examples of uninformed opinions I hear too often!

 

[cactustwirly]

Biggest load of tosh I've heard this month. Besides, you're forgetting about Luton

Heathrow has a mega-ton of leisure passengers, from all corners of the land. Even if a lot of them are on connecting flights from elsewhere! The airport does have a lot of expensive shops, yes, compared to the likes of Birmingham, Manchester, Edinburgh, Luton and Stansted, but to suggest Heathrow is an airport aimed at business travellers and not the leisure market is just nonsense.

To me, that's like saying all Americans are obese. A totally inaccurate statement! Or that all beer tastes the same. Another inaccurate statement. Yes I know you're not saying either of those, I merely provide them as examples of uninformed opinions I hear too often!

It is though!
Gatwick is more the leisure airport, I'm not denying that there aren't any leisure passengers, but 75% will be business passengers.
That's why BA fly from LGW to Barbados, Orlando etc, but from LHR to New York, Chicago etc
LHR is all legacy carriers, but Gatwick and Stansted etc have LCCs and Charter Airlines.

 

[Techniquest]

It is though!
Gatwick is more the leisure airport, I'm not denying that there aren't any leisure passengers, but 75% will be business passengers.
That's why BA fly from LGW to Barbados, Orlando etc, but from LHR to New York, Chicago etc
LHR is all legacy carriers, but Gatwick and Stansted etc have LCCs and Charter Airlines.

Do you have any figures to back up your claim regarding Heathrow? 75% business travellers may be accurate in the mornings, but I would strongly disagree on that figure for daytime and overnight flights. On my visits to Heathrow, and I confess I've only been there 3 times (landed twice, taken off once) 75% business travel is far from reality. Same with my 3 flights into/out of Heathrow, the majority have been leisure travellers. There wasn't much in the way of business travel noted on my Toronto to Heathrow flight in May 2018, even less of it seen on my Heathrow to Tallinn and return flights in October 2018.

There may well be more leisure flights from Gatwick than there is from Heathrow, I haven't looked. Besides, how does one define a 'leisure' destination or a 'business' destination? New York you mention, and class it as a business destination.

Now I don't know about the majority of people, but New York has plenty of leisure travel opportunities, it's not just about business. That might be a major pull for airlines to fly there, but if I mention New York to a norm I get the reaction of 'ooh I'd love to go there' or similar. Not one person I've ever talked to ever considers it a mainly business destination!

I'm also pretty certain there's plenty of flights to the tourist-y places like Orlando, Miami, San Francisco and LA out of Heathrow T5. Maybe not as many as Gatwick, again I'd be interested in seeing a full low-down on where BA fly to out of Heathrow on a weekday and where they serve from Gatwick.

Yes Gatwick has plenty of LCCs and so do Luton (which I see you still didn't acknowledge!) and Stansted. Leisure travel isn't just about the destination though, it's also about the travel costs and the journey to the airport to consider. For example, if it's cheap to fly from Stansted but the journey costs are high to get to the airport, not to mention flight times, it can sometimes be cheaper to fly from Heathrow. Here's an example from my own experience:

Tallinn, nice and cheap to fly with Ryanair out of Stansted. The cost of getting cross-country to the airport was more than the flights, and the flight times meant I'd need a hotel either before or after the flights to complete my journey. Now while I don't have the actual figures here to back up my opinion, the flights out of Heathrow were more expensive *but* I could do the trip without a hotel stay in the Heathrow area. I also didn't need to faff around with multiple changes with my luggage as I could get there directly with National Express for not much money. I did have to hang around a fair bit, due to coach times, but I got to do some planespotting at London's premier airport so I had no complaints!

The point being that you have to take more than flight costs into consideration when budgeting a trip. There is no point spending say just £40 on a return trip on flights if the travelling to/from the cheap flights will cost multiple times that! If I'd done the trip with Ryanair, it would have cost me more than it did to fly with BA from/to Heathrow.

Indeed, it can sometimes be cheaper for me to use Heathrow than it is to fly from Birmingham, despite BHX being much closer to me! If you think I'm exaggerating the leisure market at Heathrow, you should see how many leisure travellers get off the coach at Heathrow for flights, and my route doesn't really serve any major cities!

Oh, and you know I mentioned my Canada trip? It was only a few pounds more expensive to fly there and back with BA than it was to fly from Birmingham to Helsinki (£668 for the Canada trip including ESTA fees, £641 for Helsinki) hence going to Canada! Yes I flew out of Gatwick, but that was due to my choice of flight times, coming back into Heathrow was far less stressful and more convenient!

 

[ag51ruk]

It is though!
Gatwick is more the leisure airport, I'm not denying that there aren't any leisure passengers, but 75% will be business passengers.
That's why BA fly from LGW to Barbados, Orlando etc, but from LHR to New York, Chicago etc
LHR is all legacy carriers, but Gatwick and Stansted etc have LCCs and Charter Airlines.

You are way off on the split between leisure and business passengers at Heathrow I'm afraid. From their website at https://www.heathrow.com/company/company-news-and-information/company-information/facts-and-figures

Percentage of business travellers: 33% (26.5 million)
Percentage of leisure travellers: 67% (52.1 million)

Comparison with Gatwick https://www.gatwickairport.com/busi...atwick/company-information/gatwick-key-facts/ says

UK business 10 %
UK leisure 60 %
Overseas business 7 %;
Overseas leisure 23 %

So more leisure oriented, but still 17% of passengers travelling on business

 

[cactustwirly]

You are way off on the split between leisure and business passengers at Heathrow I'm afraid. From their website at https://www.heathrow.com/company/company-news-and-information/company-information/facts-and-figures

Percentage of business travellers: 33% (26.5 million)
Percentage of leisure travellers: 67% (52.1 million)

Comparison with Gatwick https://www.gatwickairport.com/busi...atwick/company-information/gatwick-key-facts/ says

UK business 10 %
UK leisure 60 %
Overseas business 7 %;
Overseas leisure 23 %

So more leisure oriented, but still 17% of passengers travelling on business

Wow didn't realise that, Heathrow has always felt like a business airport.
Going back to flight costs, for me I live close to Heathrow, but it's almost always cheaper to drive to Gatwick and fly from there.

 

[Techniquest]

You are way off on the split between leisure and business passengers at Heathrow I'm afraid. From their website at https://www.heathrow.com/company/company-news-and-information/company-information/facts-and-figures

Percentage of business travellers: 33% (26.5 million)
Percentage of leisure travellers: 67% (52.1 million)

Comparison with Gatwick https://www.gatwickairport.com/busi...atwick/company-information/gatwick-key-facts/ says

UK business 10 %
UK leisure 60 %
Overseas business 7 %;
Overseas leisure 23 %

So more leisure oriented, but still 17% of passengers travelling on business

So I wasn't mistaken then, Heathrow is dominated by leisure travel! Thanks for posting those figures

Wow didn't realise that, Heathrow has always felt like a business airport.
Going back to flight costs, for me I live close to Heathrow, but it's almost always cheaper to drive to Gatwick and fly from there.

Depends where you're going I guess. If you want a bargain basement flight to Spain with easyJet then yes Gatwick would probably be better.

I may not be the biggest fan of Heathrow, but I still prefer it to Gatwick. Which, incidentally, I prefer to Leeds-Bradford!

 

[Mag_seven]

Wow didn't realise that, Heathrow has always felt like a business airport.

Anecdotally there always tends to be more casually dressed people than "suits" in the departure lounges whenever I use it!

 

[higthomas]

You are way off on the split between leisure and business passengers at Heathrow I'm afraid. From their website at https://www.heathrow.com/company/company-news-and-information/company-information/facts-and-figures

Percentage of business travellers: 33% (26.5 million)
Percentage of leisure travellers: 67% (52.1 million)

Comparison with Gatwick https://www.gatwickairport.com/busi...atwick/company-information/gatwick-key-facts/ says

UK business 10 %
UK leisure 60 %
Overseas business 7 %;
Overseas leisure 23 %

So more leisure oriented, but still 17% of passengers travelling on business

One thing to bear in mind is that these figures are overall. I suspect the reason that places like Gatwick may feel more leisure oriented for some of us is that the sort of people who go one one family holiday to the med a year via package holiday or budget airline will go from those airports, not Heathrow. For many of us, these are the only sorts of leisure passengers we know. There is another sort. The kind who go many times a year, to much more exotic locations, and who even when they do go to Spain wouldn't be seen dead on Ryanair. Given the probable number of annual flights they take, they probably skew the figure.

Another thing to bear in mind is that perhaps over half of those users will be inbound visitors to the UK. I suspect that from many of Heathrow's destinations, think China etc. a lot of people will come as tourists, whereas fewer go there.

 

[cactustwirly]

So I wasn't mistaken then, Heathrow is dominated by leisure travel! Thanks for posting those figures



Depends where you're going I guess. If you want a bargain basement flight to Spain with easyJet then yes Gatwick would probably be better.

I may not be the biggest fan of Heathrow, but I still prefer it to Gatwick. Which, incidentally, I prefer to Leeds-Bradford!

Or Copenhagen, Munich, Berlin, Vienna, Salzburg.
These are all vastly cheaper from Gatwick, than Heathrow, mostly thanks to easyJet.

 

[Techniquest]

Or Copenhagen, Munich, Berlin, Vienna, Salzburg.
These are all vastly cheaper from Gatwick, than Heathrow, mostly thanks to easyJet.

Well yeah you know what I mean though, Spain was just the first example that came to the decaffeinated mind. Berlin is one I want to do, as is Munich, but they are on the 'one day' list as I'd rather score the required countries first! Belgium is getting a revisit too, but that is also on the 'one day' list.

Kinda like Kite's station revisit list, but mine is populated by countries instead

 

[FenMan]

7) Not yet done this one, but either the trains via Newport or via Evesham to Reading and onto RailAir to Heathrow Airport. This does have the disadvantage of dealing with the enormous Reading station, and with luggage this can be less than fun.

8) Trains via either route to Reading, then a local service to Hayes & Harlington and onto the Heathrow branch to the airport. When I needed to do that journey from Heathrow almost exactly a year ago, even going via Evesham it was about £46 single off-peak. Granted, that was a walk-up fare. Due to the time I needed to travel, that meant a change at H&H, Reading and Worcester. I had no luggage of note with me, but it didn't appeal.

Re 7) the lifts at Reading station are perfectly usable. Also the RailAir bus is the best option by far if using Terminal 5.

Re 8) changing at Hayes & Harlington for the Heathrow branch will become far easier when TfL get around to building the lifts. Lugging heavy cases over the current footbridge is a pain.

 

[Techniquest]

Useable at Reading yes, but hardly the quickest and if you time it badly you can be waiting ages. Just as quick for me to carry a case downstairs!

 

[MarkyT]

Useable at Reading yes, but hardly the quickest and if you time it badly you can be waiting ages. Just as quick for me to carry a case downstairs!

Retaining some kind of east end connector across the station could have helped with quick transfers to and from the SW platforms. There is a staff only service subway at that end which might double as a fire escape from the islands, but I don't know if it goes right across to the town side. You can see it being built under the new platforms here:
The street entrance looks like this today:

 

[swt_passenger]

The above subway doesn’t carry on where you have dotted lines, it is only for escape from the two brand new islands. The modified islands (P8/9 and 10/11) didn’t get escape stairs at the ends as they were not subject to new rules.

You could see the limit of the excavation from the old footbridge across to the car park when it was being built.

I thought I might have had a picture somewhere, but unfortunately haven’t kept them all, I did keep a planning drawing though: