Charing Cross-Tunbridge Wells terminators (millennium period)

[dodecahedron67]

As a commuter from Orpington for many years, I also found it galling that in the rush hour, Orpington had no fast services to/from London. Chelsfield always seemed to have a better service in the rush hours, and worse service in the non-peaks.

There was certainly a rumour when I commuted to school (counter-peak, London to Kent am) that Chelsfield had fast services because someone important in BR/Southeastern/Connex lived in Chelsfield and wanted a fast non-stop London service! Whether or not this is actually true…

 

[nw1]

As a commuter from Orpington for many years, I also found it galling that in the rush hour, Orpington had no fast services to/from London. Chelsfield always seemed to have a better service in the rush hours, and worse service in the non-peaks. I think it may now have changed insofar as there are some semi-fast trains from Orpington, and even one which starts at Orpington and is fast to London Bridge. There also used to be two trains from Cannon Street, fast to Petts Wood and Orpington only at 17.24 and 17.42.

I understand the operational reasons for this, but it was still galling!

The fast service to Chelsfield seemed to start sometime in the 80s, at the time of Hastings electrification (1986 and 1987) it was the peak Tunbridge Wells terminators (every 20 mins, later 22) which called, in addition to the 20-minutely EPBs to Sevenoaks. It was not present in 1982 (timetable on Timetable World) though Chelsfield still had a fast (albeit suburban and not non-stop) service - see below.

An oddity in the late 80s was how Knockholt and Dunton Green had first-and-standard off peak only, due to the TW services calling.

Back to 1982, the fast to Petts Wood service in the peak in fact seemed to be every 20 minutes from Cannon Street from 1644 to 1804, so pretty decent. This extended to Sevenoaks calling all stations. Presumably this was the ancestor of the later 20-minutely TW service, though that skipped every stop except Chelsfield before Sevenoaks, as already noted. In addition, in 1982 there was a 20-min interval service from Charing Cross to Orpington which was fast Waterloo East to Grove Park, so skipped about half the possible stations. Finally there was also a 20-min interval stopper from Cannon Street (only skipped St Johns) which was just in front of the fast by Petts Wood. So in 1982 at least Orpington looked to have a reasonably decent peak service.

One notable feature about the 80s was the relative unimportance of London Bridge with a good number of even the suburban services running non-stop through the station.

Out of interest, does anyone have timetables for the 1983-85 period? Would be interesting to see if the 1982 pattern lasted right up to Hastings electrification.

 

[MotCO]

One notable feature about the 80s was the relative unimportance of London Bridge with a good number of even the suburban services running non-stop through the station.

Was that because platform 7 (?) was a through platform on the edge of the upper / lower stations? If it wasn't used, there would be less train capacity.

 

[yorksrob]

Was that because platform 7 (?) was a through platform on the edge of the upper / lower stations? If it wasn't used, there would be less train capacity.

There were only six through platforms. Then there was a through line, then the bay platforms.

 

[MotCO]

There were only six through platforms. Then there was a through line, then the bay platforms.

Sorry, poor language. I meant that there was a through line next to platform 6 which had no platform so passengers could not board and alight. Of course Platforms 1 - 6 were through platforms.

 

[telstarbox]

Much as it was doubtless convenient locally, Orpington is within London (Borough of Bromley), and the significant majority of use is towards Central London, after which I would guess the next most common destination is Bromley, the major shopping and borough admin centre.

It really doesn't seem appropriate for longer distance services to Hastings, Ramsgate, or similar to provide the principal service. You don't expect the GEML trains from Norwich etc to provide the main inward service from Romford.

Crush loading of late night services is commonly caused by the operator cutting back to minimal formations, with plenty of their other rolling stock put away for the night.

But it does provide useful connections from Kent to Beckenham and Bromley (and the SEML suburban stations like Lewisham).

 

[John Bray]

Nearly all traffic has one London station as a destination, so most passengers have no interest in intermediate stops. But Orpington is a feeder point to the whole of SE London, the best point to switch from local to regional services. So why does Sevenoaks have 6tph fast to London, but Orpington 2, it can't be because of access to the Otford line. Orpington should be like Richmond or Surbiton or East Croydon, one of a ring of stations where fast and slow interconnect. I can see why the Hastings people beef about their slow service compared with Dover's HS1, but the solution is to allow the Hastings service to run fast, and the Dover and TW terminators to stop. The Hastings train could run fast from Tonbridge to save more time. The timetabling of the slows to Orpington has softened, with delays at Hither Green and a creep into Orpington, so they are painful compared with the fasts.

 

[paul1609]

But it does provide useful connections from Kent to Beckenham and Bromley (and the SEML suburban stations like Lewisham).

Not really Orpington doesnt provide any connections that Kent hasnt already got through Sevenoaks on stopping services or Thameslink or on direct services to london Victoria. Its easier and quicker to get to Lewisham via London Bridge because of the higher frequency of services there. Orpington used to be a park and ride station for a big area via the M25 but high parking charges and ULEZ zone charge has detered that.

 

[1971martin]

Thanks, that's what I remember but I can't remember which called at Orpington, so three fasts per hour but with one half-hour gap. That said, in 1987 I am fairly sure the xx30 didn't call Staplehurst - it was fast Paddock Wood-Ashford.


Ah ok, thanks. I knew the extension to Hastings of the xx15 occurred at some point but I thought it was rather later.

I also seem to remember the xx55 diverting via Maidstone at some point.

By 1996 the fast now had a Victoria origin point, still via Maidstone, but was considerably slower than the old fast. So Dover lost its "super fasts" in the late 90s. I wonder if this was due to a reduction in rail/boat traffic as a result of Eurostar, and Dover in itself was not a big enough town to warrant a fast to London?

Interesting that this basic pattern survived until at least 2001 - the Hastings were moved 10 mins earlier to (presumably) leave a gap for Eurostar, while later the xx00 to Ashford extended towards Dover and the descendant of the xx55 fast then was diverted to Canterbury West and beyond.

I think the xx30 started calling at Staplehurst in May 1988. It had been fast Paddock Wood - Ashford for many years, probably since electrification!

The fast service to Chelsfield seemed to start sometime in the 80s, at the time of Hastings electrification (1986 and 1987) it was the peak Tunbridge Wells terminators (every 20 mins, later 22) which called, in addition to the 20-minutely EPBs to Sevenoaks. It was not present in 1982 (timetable on Timetable World) though Chelsfield still had a fast (albeit suburban and not non-stop) service - see below.

An oddity in the late 80s was how Knockholt and Dunton Green had first-and-standard off peak only, due to the TW services calling.

Back to 1982, the fast to Petts Wood service in the peak in fact seemed to be every 20 minutes from Cannon Street from 1644 to 1804, so pretty decent. This extended to Sevenoaks calling all stations. Presumably this was the ancestor of the later 20-minutely TW service, though that skipped every stop except Chelsfield before Sevenoaks, as already noted. In addition, in 1982 there was a 20-min interval service from Charing Cross to Orpington which was fast Waterloo East to Grove Park, so skipped about half the possible stations. Finally there was also a 20-min interval stopper from Cannon Street (only skipped St Johns) which was just in front of the fast by Petts Wood. So in 1982 at least Orpington looked to have a reasonably decent peak service.

One notable feature about the 80s was the relative unimportance of London Bridge with a good number of even the suburban services running non-stop through the station.

Out of interest, does anyone have timetables for the 1983-85 period? Would be interesting to see if the 1982 pattern lasted right up to Hastings electrification.

Agree that London Bridge was pretty unimportant as an interchange back then as there was no Thameslink until 1988 and no Jubilee line until 1999.

Off peak there were 3 main line trains each way not stopping at London Bridge. As you say several rush hour suburban services ran through non stop I think primarily to/from Charing Cross rather than Cannon Street.

I remember the display highlighted in red on the solari at Charing Cross

NOT CALLING AT LONDON BRIDGE

 

[Taunton]

Orpington should be like Richmond or Surbiton or East Croydon, one of a ring of stations where fast and slow interconnect.

I think we are getting a bit carried away here. These are major regional centres in their own right, with high rise offices, major shops, restaurants, etc. Orpington station is - well, it's just on a suburban road, Crofton Road. Come out of the station and what do you find - suburban, low density houses. There's a Renault dealer opposite, a kebab shop - that's it. There is a High Street in Orpington but it's a bus ride away from the station, almost more convenient from there to use St Mary Cray station on the Chatham line.

The main reason Orpington seems a major station is it's where the 4 tracks out from London go down to 2, so a place to turn round suburban services. If it wasn't for that, these would be more worthwhile continued through the well built-up 1930s housing area on to Chelsfield, end of London.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

I think we are getting a bit carried away here. These are major regional centres in their own right, with high rise offices, major shops, restaurants, etc. Orpington station is - well, it's just on a suburban road, Crofton Road. Come out of the station and what do you find - suburban, low density houses. There's a Renault dealer opposite, a kebab shop - that's it. There is a High Street in Orpington but it's a bus ride away from the station, almost more convenient from there to use St Mary Cray station on the Chatham line.

The main reason Orpington seems a major station is it's where the 4 tracks out from London go down to 2, so a place to turn round suburban services. If it wasn't for that, these would be more worthwhile continued through the well built-up 1930s housing area on to Chelsfield, end of London.

Why does the four tracks end at Orpington? I presume it's something to do with the tunnels under the North Downs on the way to Sevenoaks

 

[MotCO]

Not really Orpington doesnt provide any connections that Kent hasnt already got through Sevenoaks on stopping services or Thameslink or on direct services to london Victoria. Its easier and quicker to get to Lewisham via London Bridge because of the higher frequency of services there. Orpington used to be a park and ride station for a big area via the M25 but high parking charges and ULEZ zone charge has detered that.

It was also near the end of Zone 6, so fares would be signiicantly cheaper than from, say, Sevenoaks.

Come out of the station and what do you find - suburban, low density houses. There's a Renault dealer opposite, a kebab shop - that's it.

You forgot the most important thing - the house where I used to live

 

[30907]

There was certainly a rumour when I commuted to school (counter-peak, London to Kent am) that Chelsfield had fast services because someone important in BR/Southeastern/Connex lived in Chelsfield and wanted a fast non-stop London service! Whether or not this is actually true…

The whole timetable came in with the 70s LBG rebuild.

The Chelsfield peak fasts were designed to provide a connection into the Sevenoaks stopper (so for Knockholt and Dunton Green) as they had no peak CHX service. I've always assumed that the connection was at Chelsfield because stopping at orpington would have overloaded the trains. Incidentally the peak Cannon St-Petts Wd-Sevenoaks was relatively lightly loaded in my day (78-80).

 

[nw1]

The whole timetable came in with the 70s LBG rebuild.

The Chelsfield peak fasts were designed to provide a connection into the Sevenoaks stopper (so for Knockholt and Dunton Green) as they had no peak CHX service. I've always assumed that the connection was at Chelsfield because stopping at orpington would have overloaded the trains. Incidentally the peak Cannon St-Petts Wd-Sevenoaks was relatively lightly loaded in my day (78-80).

I don't see any peak services calling at Chelsfield only (before Sevenoaks) in the 1982 timetable on Timetable World though. Those Chelsfield fasts were present as TW terminators by 1986 but didn't seem to exist in 1982 (or 1981, also present on Timetable World). I do seem to remember a comment in the 1986 timetable (first Hastings electrification timetable) that implied they had existed in 1985 as Tonbridge terminators ("the Charing Cross - Chelsfield - Sevenoaks - Tonbridge peak services will now be extended to TW" or something like that), so they were presumably introduced sometime between 1983 and 1985.

Surprised the Cannon Street - Petts Wood - all to Sevenoaks would have been lightly loaded (in 1982) as they were the fastest peak services to Orpington and more or less the only service to the intermediate stations to Sevenoaks. All were booked 8EPB (so no 10-cars, but no 6-cars either) in 1982; I have the CWN for that year.

 

[yorksrob]

Ashford services went through a period of calling at Chelsfield in the early 90's I seem to recall.

 

[30907]

I don't see any peak services calling at Chelsfield only (before Sevenoaks) in the 1982 timetable on Timetable World though. Those Chelsfield fasts were present as TW terminators by 1986 but didn't seem to exist in 1982 (or 1981, also present on Timetable World).
I do seem to remember a comment in the 1986 timetable (first Hastings electrification timetable) that implied they had existed in 1985 as Tonbridge terminators ("the Charing Cross - Chelsfield - Sevenoaks - Tonbridge peak services will now be extended to TW" or something like that), so they were presumably introduced sometime between 1983 and 1985.

Yes, I am obviously mixing my timetable periods up. They're not in 1979 (WTT) either.

Surprised the Cannon Street - Petts Wood - all to Sevenoaks would have been lightly loaded (in 1982) as they were the fastest peak services to Orpington and more or less the only service to the intermediate stations to Sevenoaks. All were booked 8EPB (so no 10-cars, but no 6-cars either) in 1982; I have the CWN for that year.

Lightly loaded was by the standards of the SE peak! 8 cars with seats to spare was my recollection.