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Cheshire Bus News (was East Cheshire Bus News)

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markymark2000

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Changes are happening next month with the services ran by Winsford depot - awaiting details from VOSA/Arriva website but drivers i know have said it's going to be the cancellation of the 31W Crewe - Winsford, 37W Winsford - Sandbach and one of the Winsford circulars 7A or 7C
The W routes don't do as well because they're daft. The changes were a dead cert trying to kill demand to justify bigger cuts.


I don't see why the Winsford circulars need to really link Wharton to the train station and the 31/37 need to serve an estate somewhere I think as most people from the estates want Northwich or Crewe, don't want Winsford. No one wants to go into Winsford unless they have to.
 
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sonic2009

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The W routes don't do as well because they're daft. The changes were a dead cert trying to kill demand to justify bigger cuts.


I don't see why the Winsford circulars need to really link Wharton to the train station and the 31/37 need to serve an estate somewhere I think as most people from the estates want Northwich or Crewe, don't want Winsford. No one wants to go into Winsford unless they have to.

I think the circulars link the estate's with the station because that's what previous services used to do. You do wonder though could this be the end of Arriva in Winsford over time?
 

markymark2000

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I think the circulars link the estate's with the station because that's what previous services used to do. You do wonder though could this be the end of Arriva in Winsford over time?
They've been slowly killing it for years.

They prefer to kill all demand though rather than cancelling everything and letting someone else re-register the routes and make money.
 

station_road

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The changes were in the Traffic Commissioner Notices and Proceedings on 11 May

PC0002598/202 ARRIVA NORTH WEST LTD, 73 ORMSKIRK ROAD, LIVERPOOL, L9 5AE
Operating between Crewe Bus Station and Northwich, Watling Street given service number 37 / 37 / 37W effective from 12 June 2022. To amend Route and Timetable.

PC0002598/203 ARRIVA NORTH WEST LTD, 73 ORMSKIRK ROAD, LIVERPOOL, L9 5AE
Operating between Northwich, Watling Street and Crewe Bus Station given service number 31 / 31W / 31 effective from 12 June 2022. To amend Route and Timetable.

Traveline is showing only the Cheshire East subsidised evening buses on the 37W still running on 13 June, and 1 evening service on the 31W - but the Traveline data has caught me out before, so need to wait for an official timetable
 

Redmike

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From Monday 13 June 2022, we will be making changes to services 31W and 37W running from Winsford to Crewe or Sandbach.
The majority of journeys will be withdrawn, except for:
• Service 31W - one early morning and one evening journey
• Service 37W - evening journeys (after 7pm) will continue as normal.

We do not take service change decisions lightly. However, we are introducing changes to ensure the stability of our services between Northwich and Crewe. Services 31 and 37 will continue to operate hourly (combining to provide a 30 minute service).

Confirming that the majority of journeys are being withdrawn.
 
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Simon75

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I think the circulars link the estate's with the station because that's what previous services used to do. You do wonder though could this be the end of Arriva in Winsford over time?
Talk of Arriva selling Winsford and Macclesfield, been on the cards for a few years. Macclesfield with a pvr (peak vehicle requirement) of around 5 to 7, a shadow of in the late 80s when it was c 20 to 30
 

daodao

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"we are introducing changes to ensure the stability of our services between Northwich and Crewe"

Sounds like they have resourcing issues.
Withdrawal of most journeys on route 31W will be a significant reduction in public transport provision for Leighton Hospital.
 

Wolfie

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Talk of Arriva selling Winsford and Macclesfield, been on the cards for a few years. Macclesfield with a pvr (peak vehicle requirement) of around 5 to 7, a shadow of in the late 80s when it was c 20 to 30
What is the demand level though? If that's changed radically then the supply side must too, unless someone is prepared to subsidise.

They've been slowly killing it for years.

They prefer to kill all demand though rather than cancelling everything and letting someone else re-register the routes and make money.
What would be in that for them? Surely they would look to sell instead if they no longer want the routes but they are profitable?

Cheshire East's BSIP was very poor on actual attention to detail , they appeared to rush it last minute and dropped a 56 million pound figure out of a hat. Did they actually do a public consultation as I don't recall one or any results of it?

If they wanted the money they needed to have an actual business plan based on passenger demands with extensive operator and passenger group involvement and potentially working with TfGM on it.

This is where they appear to have massively failed.
One thing HMT always wants, not to mention the NAO, is a detailed business case to allow robust performance metrics to be put in place.
 

markymark2000

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What would be in that for them? Surely they would look to sell instead if they no longer want the routes but they are profitable?
Truthfully, I don't know but it seems to be the way that Arriva work. Then, eventually, the operation gets so small and they scrap the depot like they did in Sheerness.

My theory is that by killing demand, Arriva puts off any competition and so no one enters the area and tries to jump on one of their profitable routes and thus risks the future of the few bits that are profitable. Also by killing demand and cutting back slowly, they probably save on redundancy pay when they shut a depot as older people will leave and new recruits won't get as much in redundancy pay.
 

sonic2009

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Withdrawal of most journeys on route 31W will be a significant reduction in public transport provision for Leighton Hospital.

I'm not surprised the 31W/37W have been withdrawn from June 14th.

The 31W certainly as a frequent user hardly ever carried many passengers between Leighton Hospital and Winsford or vice versa.

So I wouldn't say it's a significant reduction in the public transport provision - although I agree the state of local bus services in Crewe/Winsford/Northwich does need looking at.
 

Shauny

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Referring to an old topic of conversation, I can confirm that Arriva’s 4706 (LM17 WOH) is back in service (after a month and a half) at Winsford depot, usually working on the 6 or the W’s
 

Simon75

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I'm not surprised the 31W/37W have been withdrawn from June 14th.

The 31W certainly as a frequent user hardly ever carried many passengers between Leighton Hospital and Winsford or vice versa.

So I wouldn't say it's a significant reduction in the public transport provision - although I agree the state of local bus services in Crewe/Winsford/Northwich does need looking at.
You can add Macclesfield to that list too
 
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northwichcat

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You can add Macclesfield to that list too

You can't look at one town in isolation. You could argue that improved provision is needed between the town centre and the hospital. However, if the 88 was made hourly and both the 88 and 130 were consistent then for Mon-Sat daytime, there would be a reasonable level of provision between the town centre and the hospital.

My theory is that by killing demand, Arriva puts off any competition and so no one enters the area and tries to jump on one of their profitable routes and thus risks the future of the few bits that are profitable. Also by killing demand and cutting back slowly, they probably save on redundancy pay when they shut a depot as older people will leave and new recruits won't get as much in redundancy pay.

No-one wants to try competition anymore after how badly it went with the 130, 45 (Northwich-Warrington) and 84.
 

daodao

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You can't look at one town in isolation. You could argue that improved provision is needed between the town centre and the hospital. However, if the 88 was made hourly and both the 88 and 130 were consistent then for Mon-Sat daytime, there would be a reasonable level of provision between the town centre and the hospital.
It is less than 1 mile and only 15 minutes walk between Macclesfield Hospital and the Town Hall/Market Place; a bus is of minimal use for this journey. When I lived in a flat on Pavilion Way (2 stops further away) I did use the bus occasionally to travel to Macclesfield town centre; at that time there were 3 daytime buses per hour (2 on route 130, 1 on route 27), but the timekeeping (particularly on route 130) was poor.
 

Deerfold

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It is less than 1 mile and only 15 minutes walk between Macclesfield Hospital and the Town Hall/Market Place; a bus is of minimal use for this journey. When I lived in a flat on Pavilion Way (2 stops further away) I did use the bus occasionally to travel to Macclesfield town centre; at that time there were 3 daytime buses per hour (2 on route 130, 1 on route 27), but the timekeeping (particularly on route 130) was poor.

15 minutes walk for a healthy adult. Many going to a hospital don't fit that description. Many will drive or get a taxi if they'd have to walk a mile after getting a bus.
 

northwichcat

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15 minutes walk for a healthy adult. Many going to a hospital don't fit that description. Many will drive or get a taxi if they'd have to walk a mile after getting a bus.

The cost of parking a car at Macclesfield Hospital puts people off driving. Especially those who are making repeated visits to see a sick friend or family member who has been admitted to hospital.
 

Wolfie

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The cost of parking a car at Macclesfield Hospital puts people off driving. Especially those who are making repeated visits to see a sick friend or family member who has been admitted to hospital.
Sadly true of far too many hospitals in England.
 

Simon75

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You can't look at one town in isolation. You could argue that improved provision is needed between the town centre and the hospital. However, if the 88 was made hourly and both the 88 and 130 were consistent then for Mon-Sat daytime, there would be a reasonable level of provision between the town centre and the hospital.



No-one wants to try competition anymore after how badly it went with the 130, 45 (Northwich-Warrington) and 84.
You have the D&G 38 Crewe to Macclesfield which is still going after around 2 years.
 
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markymark2000

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You can't look at one town in isolation. You could argue that improved provision is needed between the town centre and the hospital. However, if the 88 was made hourly and both the 88 and 130 were consistent then for Mon-Sat daytime, there would be a reasonable level of provision between the town centre and the hospital.



No-one wants to try competition anymore after how badly it went with the 130, 45 (Northwich-Warrington) and 84.
130 wasn't really competition, it was D&G trying to fill gaps, in the same way that they have done on the 38. It didn't work out because of the padding and the constant changes to the service. 84 competition didn't last long, mainly because it was 3 firms. In a good few areas, there is friendly competition that works well, both with high and medium frequencies. It's down to someone finding a gap in the market and exploiting it. Whether that be filling a gap in the service or in some cases, it's just actually turning up (as some operators have a poor record of turning up)

The cost of parking a car at Macclesfield Hospital puts people off driving. Especially those who are making repeated visits to see a sick friend or family member who has been admitted to hospital.
If you look at the reasons why people go to hospitals, it may explain why buses to hospitals tend to not do very well. I will admit, this does go off the topic of Cheshire East but does well to explain the point on hospital buses.

1. Someone they are with or someone they know has just been taken in - Well, people tend to rush to get to the hospital and so public transport isn't very 'rush', cars (including taxis) are quicker.
2. General visiting - Ok, people could use the bus for this but visiting hours are normally limited to an afternoon and evening. Afternoon ones are normally quieter in my experience and for the hospital near me (a 600 bed hospital), I'd say you're looking around 75 or so visitors per day. Not huge numbers. Even at best case scenario and you could get 10% onto buses, the difference is negligible. Evening visits are normally people going straight after work and as such divert as part of their normal journey or they need to get there quickly to spend the time with the person they are visiting before visiting ends.
3. Normal appointments - Now, this is one area where some difference could and should be made. Normal appointments have potential for some usage but hospitals are so big that a bus to the entrance would still mean walking a fair distance and as such, a car or taxi can get them much closer to the appointment. Another hospital near me is Wrexham Maelor which is 800 capacity and is the 'go to' hospital for North East Wales and buses rarely stop at the hospital at all and most of the buses in Wrexham which head out to the west stop at the hospital but most just plod past. Very few people use the bus to get there (in the grand scheme of things)

With these 3 points, even if you can get these people onto buses, it is a trickle of passengers. Buses need more than 1 or 2 passengers to be worthwhile and the numbers simply aren't there, at any time of day, to accommodate this type of visitor.

4. Staff. Staff is a big one but this is generally shift times. From experience, this seems minimal. Hospital workers seem to travel from quite far, like opposite sides of the town/city and so to get buses to the hospital would take a while and cost them dearly with the change of bus. Also with a number of hospital workers working a long shift, the last thing they want is a long bus journey, it's not a 9-5 job. Again, like appointments, buses will have a standard drop off point and hospitals are big places so staff could walk a long way to get to work versus a car or taxi which would drop them much closer to their place of work.
Buses can certainly do better here but it relies upon hospitals working with the operators too. The funny thing is, if people get ill due to poor air quality, they end up in hospital and hospitals are supposedly overwhelmed (not disputing, just not been so I don't know for sure), yet, the NHS is one of the worst public sector areas when it comes to pushing public transport. I've been to countless hospitals and I'd say the vast majority have dismal public transport information at the entrance or even on the bus stops themselves.
Here is a recent one from Shrewsbury Hospital - https://twitter.com/SmithysTP/status/1500878389460320263. Most hospital websites have poor information too on 'getting there' except for if you're in a car, at which point, the information is excellent.


Point being, Hospitals don't work with bus operators to share shift times or make it easier for buses to access sites nor do they encourage anyone to use public transport. That is why the staff don't use buses, why would they when it's easier, sometimes cheaper and there is literally no incentive to use the bus.



In summary, why would staff change to a bus when it's more inconvenient and provides no benefit to them and visitors generally can't travel by bus because it doesn't work out for the plans and there aren't enough people going to pre planned normal appointments for any service to be in place. It'd be a waste of time and money.
 

GusB

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Point being, Hospitals don't work with bus operators to share shift times or make it easier for buses to access sites nor do they encourage anyone to use public transport. That is why the staff don't use buses, why would they when it's easier, sometimes cheaper and there is literally no incentive to use the bus.

This is a far wider issue than just Cheshire, to be honest, and it should probably be discussed separately.

Your point that hospitals don't work with bus operators is a valid one, but it has to work the other way too. Hospital shifts are actually fairly predictable. What isn't predictable is service-sector jobs where there isn't a traditional shift pattern any more.
 

northwichcat

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130 wasn't really competition, it was D&G trying to fill gaps, in the same way that they have done on the 38. It didn't work out because of the padding and the constant changes to the service. 84 competition didn't last long, mainly because it was 3 firms.

The 130 was competition though. A D&G weekly ticket undercuts the price of an Arriva one and a lot of passengers were unhappy with the Arriva service because buses were frequently late. In an area where there's no interchangeable ticketing, most commuters aren't going to get an Arriva bus in the morning and a D&G bus in the afternoon, they'll try and time their commutes so they use the same operator in both directions.

The change for the 130 to go to the airport instead of Handforth Dean, when the 200 was withdrawn, was generally seen as a positive one. People in Macclesfield were more likely to want an airport bus than a bus to a retail park with an M&S and a Tesco, when they've already got those stores locally. But it was never going to generate passengers overnight, especially with Styal getting an enhanced rail service and the D&G 130 not serving the viewing park.

The bus pass holders will always get the next available service but they're not the ones generating lots of revenue for operators.

The 45 was a more aggressive form of competition. GHA registered a service that ran 5 minutes ahead of a Network Warrington one and the vehicles they brought in to run the service were painted red, rather than in their usual livery. It might have been as Network Warrington were getting a subsidy, they hoped their commercial 45 would see Network Warrington withdrawing the service but they retained it as a commercial service and made changes in response to the GHA registration.

but hospitals are so big that a bus to the entrance would still mean walking a fair distance and as such, a car or taxi can get them much closer to the appointment.

In the case of Macclesfield hospital buses going from the town centre towards Knutsford or Wilmslow enter the hospital grounds and stop outside the entrance to one of the buildings. Apparently it can't be done in the other direction due to a difficulty with buses making right turns to get in and out of the grounds.

There is also a private facility next to the main NHS hospital and East Cheshire Hospice on the other side of Victoria Road from the hospital. However, the bus stops are very close together. The one before the hospital stop is 0.3 miles from the one after the hospital stop. There's 3 car parks marked on Google but they are all the south side of the main building and I can't say what availability of spaces in a specific car park would be like at a given time.

Afternoon ones are normally quieter in my experience

Which is a valid reason for the 88 & 130 running later. Especially the 88, given D&G currently run 2 vehicles back empty from Macclesfield to Wincham at around 7pm. GHA ran some 27X positional moves between Macclesfield and Knutsford, as a way of moving buses around without them running out-of-service. D&G don't bother looking at doing things like that. They're based in Stoke and the person in charge at the Wincham outstation is an ex-Stagecoach man from Wigan and I don't get the impression they're bothered about improving their local knowledge to maximise the potential of bus routes.

Hospitals don't work with bus operators to share shift times or make it easier for buses to access sites nor do they encourage anyone to use public transport. That is why the staff don't use buses, why would they when it's easier, sometimes cheaper and there is literally no incentive to use the bus.

Hospital shifts are actually fairly predictable.

That's one thing the 88 & 130 routes don't provide for at Macclesfield Hospital. The routes allow for office hour shifts in Macclesfield town centre, not NHS shifts at the hospital. Both the 88 & 130 routes currently receive subsides so so even if the operator doesn't communicate with the hospital, the council should be actively looking for ways to ensure the routes are as well used as possible, in turn keeping the subsidy as low as possible.
 

markymark2000

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The change for the 130 to go to the airport instead of Handforth Dean, when the 200 was withdrawn, was generally seen as a positive one. People in Macclesfield were more likely to want an airport bus than a bus to a retail park with an M&S and a Tesco, when they've already got those stores locally. But it was never going to generate passengers overnight, especially with Styal getting an enhanced rail service and the D&G 130 not serving the viewing park.
A positive change, is that why it only lasted 5 minutes. D&G have done over people in Wilmslow and the surrounding areas so many times with hope of a bus and then it gets changed every 30 seconds. It's no wonder D&G are so rarely used in the area, they have a reputation now for constant changes. People just don't trust them anymore.

As for 'it was never going to generate passengers overnight', well surely the normal 200 passengers would have transferred over. But as any driver at Howards would have said, the route was completely dead except for the viewing park.

Which is a valid reason for the 88 & 130 running later. Especially the 88, given D&G currently run 2 vehicles back empty from Macclesfield to Wincham at around 7pm. GHA ran some 27X positional moves between Macclesfield and Knutsford, as a way of moving buses around without them running out-of-service. D&G don't bother looking at doing things like that. They're based in Stoke and the person in charge at the Wincham outstation is an ex-Stagecoach man from Wigan and I don't get the impression they're bothered about improving their local knowledge to maximise the potential of bus routes.
It's been discussed elsewhere but for some reason, some firms don't want to do placement trips and D&G is one of those firms. Whoever does routes and timetables at D&G just sits in their office and doesn't give a toot about improving services. Run bare minimum, whatever the council set out. Don't care for alternative bids to make routes more attractive and no care for placements or anything to reduce dead mileage. The funny thing is, sometimes, councils will pay for the dead mileage runs like the kind of express runs you are on about) and so it's more money for doing absolutely no more work but the person at D&G just doesn't care. Underworked and overpaid.

If someone with the 'expansion' or 'passenger focused' mindset went into D&G, they could transform the company within a few months.

That's one thing the 88 & 130 routes don't provide for at Macclesfield Hospital. The routes allow for office hour shifts in Macclesfield town centre, not NHS shifts at the hospital. Both the 88 & 130 routes currently receive subsides so so even if the operator doesn't communicate with the hospital, the council should be actively looking for ways to ensure the routes are as well used as possible, in turn keeping the subsidy as low as possible.
NHS Shifts can range from very early till very late though so you'd need to get some decent information on the shifts, how many people were on those shifts and where these people want to go to.

As for the council, you are naieve to think that Cheshire East want to improve bus patronage. If they improve bus patronage, it means they have more resistance against cuts to tendered buses and they cant rid them as easily. Seriously though, Cheshire East council won't communicate to anyone relating to buses. It makes no odds to them if there are 30,000 buses or 3 buses in the borough. Not a care in the world.
 

Contains Nuts

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If anyone is happy to answer I'd be interested to find out what happened with the C84 route?
When the regulations on the distance of local bus routes changed the route was split into two. Chester to Crewe (84) and Hanley to Nantwich (85). Short journeys also operated between Nantwich and Crewe (83) to provide an overall 20 minute frequency with hourly journeys to Hanley and Chester.

The Hanley end of the route was cut short to run between Crewe and Newcastle in 2003 when Arriva’s Crewe depot transferred from the Midlands North division to North West.

A few years after that Arriva North West cancelled the service and Arriva Midlands North attempted to run a commercial replacement from Stafford depot. D&G competed with this service, and not long after Arriva withdrew and D&G continue to provide the service, operating between Newcastle and Nantwich.

Arriva North West retain the 84 which runs every 20 minutes between Crewe and Nantwich with hourly extensions to Chester.

Rather interestingly, the route has barely changed in the last century. The very first Crosville service between Nantwich and Newcastle ran via a similar route to the current 85, and the Chester end has only really changed within Chester City Centre.
 

Simon75

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When the regulations on the distance of local bus routes changed the route was split into two. Chester to Crewe (84) and Hanley to Nantwich (85). Short journeys also operated between Nantwich and Crewe (83) to provide an overall 20 minute frequency with hourly journeys to Hanley and Chester.

The Hanley end of the route was cut short to run between Crewe and Newcastle in 2003 when Arriva’s Crewe depot transferred from the Midlands North division to North West.

A few years after that Arriva North West cancelled the service and Arriva Midlands North attempted to run a commercial replacement from Stafford depot. D&G competed with this service, and not long after Arriva withdrew and D&G continue to provide the service, operating between Newcastle and Nantwich.

Arriva North West retain the 84 which runs every 20 minutes between Crewe and Nantwich with hourly extensions to Chester.

Rather interestingly, the route has barely changed in the last century. The very first Crosville service between Nantwich and Newcastle ran via a similar route to the current 85, and the Chester end has only really changed within Chester City Centre.
The 85 between Crewe and Nantwich part replaces the former K45/45 , operating via Marshfield estate, and what was Leighton Park estate, where 84 service between Crewe and Nantwich like the old C84 via Willaston

I didn't realise for a while the 85 was run by Arriva Stafford (a ridiculous amount of dead miles,)
I thought D&G took over the 85 around the time the Arriva Crewe garage shut

D&G generally don't compete direct with routes, but often replace them.
First Potteries generally have a good relationship, and with Arriva (eg selling bits off)
 

Martin1988

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Thanks ever so much for this interesting information. I didn't realise the C84 was a historic service. Had assumed it was an attempt at a competing service to Arriva's 84.

In terms of D&G competing with routes wasn't there a time when they lost a tender for a route and registered it commercially so the rival operator couldn't run it? Or was that a different company?
 

northwichcat

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Thanks ever so much for this interesting information. I didn't realise the C84 was a historic service. Had assumed it was an attempt at a competing service to Arriva's 84.

In terms of D&G competing with routes wasn't there a time when they lost a tender for a route and registered it commercially so the rival operator couldn't run it? Or was that a different company?

What you're perhaps thinking of is a few years ago Arriva ran a half-hourly 84 between Chester and Crewe and D&G ran some 84 shorts between Nantwich and Crewe. Arriva cut the frequency of their Chester service to hourly. At that point Routemaster Buses registered an hourly C84, running roughly at the times of the withdrawn Arriva services. Arriva were fine with that but GHA Coaches were not. The C84 departed Chester a few minutes before their 82 Chester to Northwich and they both went out the same way to Tarvin. They then launched a bus war, where they retimed the 82 to run 15 minutes earlier and registered a 84 to run 5 minutes ahead of the C82. I don't have the timetables to hand or remember the Chester departure times but they ended up something like:

10:00 84 Crewe (Arriva)
10:15 82 Northwich (GHA)
10:25 84 Crewe (GHA)
10:30 C84 Crewe (Routemaster)
10:45 82 Northwich (GHA)

The bus war caused Routemaster to go out of business and then once the C84 had gone, GHA withdrew their 84.

With the 130 Sunday service there was an instance of an operator registering it commercially after losing the contract. GHA had the contract but lost out to D&G and then ran a reduced service commercially meaning the D&G contract was withdrawn.




In other news the 19 service was being operated by D&G on behalf of High Peak due to staffing issues. Now it's gone back to High Peak with the service reduced to every 90 minutes "to reflect current demand and to improve reliability".
 
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