Chiltern Railway Court Prosecution for Railcard (Fraud)

[Hivisflower]

Hi all

Yesterday (06/10) I was travelling on the 13:40 from Birmingham Moor Street to London Marylebone with an advance single ticket discounted with a 16-25 railcard. I do own a 16-25 railcard and at the time of buying the ticket (27/09) I had it in my possession, however when the ticket inspector of this train asked to see it, I couldn't find it.
The ticket inspector offered me a new single ticket from BMO to MYB at around £35- however I told him I could not afford a new ticket at this moment, and he promptly responded saying Chiltern Railway will be taking me to court for fraud. That was that.
*Not really necessary information, but he saw an Oyster on my table and, assuming it was mine, said he'll be confiscating it- I responded saying it wasn't mine. Just thought I might aswell mention it as, correct me if I'm wrong, but if he works for Chiltern is he allowed to just take a TfL Oyster?*
Anyway...

Questions:
- I own a railcard, however I don't know where it is, I've lost it. So should I order a new one?
- Will I be given another chance to pay the £35 fee?
- The ticket inspector scanned my ticket barcode (from trainline), however, didn't take any of my details like address, bank details etc- will he have enough information from the barcode to find out where I live and who I am?
- If he does, what should I do now?

P.S- This is my first time being caught without a railcard this year (once previously 2 years ago and paid for a new ticket).
- The above journey was the return journey of a return ticket (I travelled to BMO from MYB on 04/10).

Thank you for reading, any help would be appreciated.

 

[Gloster]

If you were given any paperwork at the time please post it in this thread. Please obscure your name, address and any other identifying details, such as reference numbers.

 

[Hivisflower]

Hey, na I wasn't given any paperwork or anything for that matter.

 

[John R]

What type of ticket did you have? Paper or e-ticket?

 

[Hivisflower]

I had an e-ticket I bought off of trainline.

 

[John R]

I had an e-ticket I bought off of trainline.

So they will be able to contact you via details obtained from Trainline.

The usual outcome if you cooperate would be an out of court settlement offer of around £150, together with the £35 fare. Unfortunately it would have been much cheaper to have found the means to pay the fare requested at the time.

They may well ask for proof that you have indeed had a railcard if they see other tickets purchased with a railcard on your account.

 

[Hivisflower]

Damn that's unfortunate, how long will I have to wait to hear from them? I'm assuming they'll email me as that's the only information of mine trainline has?

 

[Haywain]

I own a railcard, however I don't know where it is, I've lost it. So should I order a new one?

Did you buy it online or at a station? If you bought it online there will (or should) be details on the website of how to go about obtaining a replacement that covers the same dates. If it was at a station, you can produce the leaflet to obtain a replacement at the station for (I think) £10.00 but, in this case, if you don't have the leaflet you won't be able to obtain a replacement. If you buy a new railcard it will not cover the date on which you were travelling.

 

[Hivisflower]

I bought it online through Santander. Ok I'll have a look at the website. Thanks

 

[30907]

If you had an in-date railcard at the time you travelled, train companies will normally permit you to prove that after the event once. I imagine they would also accept evidence of a duplicate card, so paying for this would be worth it.

 

[CyrusWuff]

So they will be able to contact you via details obtained from Trainline.

The usual outcome if you cooperate would be an out of court settlement offer of around £150, together with the £35 fare. Unfortunately it would have been much cheaper to have found the means to pay the fare requested at the time.

They may well ask for proof that you have indeed had a railcard if they see other tickets purchased with a railcard on your account.

Any settlement offer will be based on the Anytime Day Single fare. For a Chiltern ticket from Birmingham to London, that's currently £88.70.

I bought it online through Santander. Ok I'll have a look at the website. Thanks

For Railcards obtained through the Santander offer, information on getting a replacement is at https://www.16-25railcard.co.uk/help/faqs/santander/

 

[Hivisflower]

Moderator Note - this post has been merged into the original thread so that everything relating to the case is in one place.

Hello all,

I've now received an email from Chiltern, which I've attached below. I've read multiple threads here about similar situations and understand I need to draft an email essentially saying:
- I'm sorry for what I done
- I've learned from it and won't happen again
- I'd like to settle the matter outside of court and pay any outstanding fees and administrative costs.

However, since my last post I've reapplied for a replacement railcard and now have a valid one in my possession. With this railcard, is there any chance I could provide them with a photo of it and explain my way out of this situation or has that ship already sailed?

The other concern is they mention they contacted various other rail ticket retailers and found I 'may have avoided your correct rail fare on other occasions'- I'm not certain of the correct way to address this as the last time I had any problems with rail tickets before was around 2 years ago which I resolved with the ticket inspector by paying for a new ticket. If one could advise on this it would be greatly appreciated.

Please let me know if there is anything else I should mention or anything I've failed to cover. I will l upload a draft of a response email in the next day to be checked.
Thank you

 

[Hadders]

You can mention that you've purchased a railcard since the incident but Chiltern won't accept this in respect of the journey where you were caught.

You need to ask whether they will consider settling the matter out of court rather than saying you'd like to. Small point but it's Chiltern's decision on how tp proceed, not yours.

It's clear that Chiltern have researched your online ticket purchasing history and will want to factor the cost of other journeys where you travelled with invlid tickets into the settlement cost. I suggest you also check your onine ticket purchasing history and tell them how many times you believe you have travelled with an invalid ticket.

If you post your draft reply in this thread forum members will proof read it for you.

 

[Trainbike46]

Important point: can you prove you had a railcard covering the date you travelled, e.g. through the replacement for a lost railcard, with the same validity dates as the one you lost, as discussed upthread?


If so, I would make that the main part of your response, apologising for not being able to show your railcard on the train, but that you were in posession of a valid 16-25 railcard at the time, enclosing your evidence. This would also address their concerns regarding failing to pay the correct fare on other occasions.

EDITED to add: if they do go ahead with taking you to court, you may wish to consider whether you qualify for legal aid and get a solicitor. A solicitor would be able to advice on whether legal aid is possible

 

[Hivisflower]

Important point: can you prove you had a railcard covering the date you travelled, e.g. through the replacement for a lost railcard, with the same validity dates as the one you lost, as discussed upthread?


If so, I would make that the main part of your response, apologising for not being able to show your railcard on the train, but that you were in posession of a valid 16-25 railcard at the time, enclosing your evidence. This would also address their concerns regarding failing to pay the correct fare on other occasions.

EDITED to add: if they do go ahead with taking you to court, you may wish to consider whether you qualify for legal aid and get a solicitor. A solicitor would be able to advice on whether legal aid is possible

I have email receipts, that is all. Is that sufficient evidence?

 

[Hivisflower]

You can mention that you've purchased a railcard since the incident but Chiltern won't accept this in respect of the journey where you were caught.

You need to ask whether they will consider settling the matter out of court rather than saying you'd like to. Small point but it's Chiltern's decision on how tp proceed, not yours.

It's clear that Chiltern have researched your online ticket purchasing history and will want to factor the cost of other journeys where you travelled with invlid tickets into the settlement cost. I suggest you also check your onine ticket purchasing history and tell them how many times you believe you have travelled with an invalid ticket.

If you post your draft reply in this thread forum members will proof read it for you.

Thank you, noted.

I've been caught without my railcard before but I've always bought another ticket on the spot. To my knowledge over the last 3/4 years I haven't had any other problems with rail companies that have gone beyond buying a replacement ticket. I have no way of finding out the number of times I've travelled with an invalid ticket in the past so I'm not sure if it's worth me covering that point? What do you think?
Thanks

Here's a rough draft of a response:

Dear XXX,
I am writing in response to your letter regarding my travel on 6th October when I was unable to produce my valid railcard for the discounted ticket. I sincerely apologise for this oversight, I assure you that it was unintentional and will not happen in the future.
The ticket was purchased using my 16-25 railcard, which is valid until Feb26, and I realise that I failed to present it during my journey. I deeply regret this error and fully understand the importance of adhering to ticketing regulations.
I value the service provided by Chiltern Railways and respect its policies. I have since obtained a copy of my valid railcard to avoid any future misunderstandings. I would be sincerely grateful if you would consider settling this matter outside of court, and allow me to cover any outstanding fares or administrative costs to resolve this mistake amicably and avoid further action.
Thank you for considering my explanation. Please let me know if further information is required.

Please let me know what you all think.
Thanks

 

[Trainbike46]

Thank you, noted.

I've been caught without my railcard before but I've always bought another ticket on the spot. To my knowledge over the last 3/4 years I haven't had any other problems with rail companies that have gone beyond buying a replacement ticket. I have no way of finding out the number of times I've travelled with an invalid ticket in the past so I'm not sure if it's worth me covering that point? What do you think?

What Chiltern is probably referring to is that they assume you do not have, and never had, a 16-25 railcard. Therefore, they assume that all tickets you have ever bought with such a discount are fraudulent in their view. Others may be best place to say if they agree that is a likely read of what Chiltern mean.

Thanks

Here's a rough draft of a response:

Dear XXX,
I am writing in response to your letter regarding my travel on 6th October when I was unable to produce my valid railcard for the discounted ticket. I sincerely apologise for this oversight, I assure you that it was unintentional and will not happen in the future.
The ticket was purchased using my 16-25 railcard, which is valid until Feb26, and I realise that I failed to present it during my journey. I deeply regret this error and fully understand the importance of adhering to ticketing regulations.
I value the service provided by Chiltern Railways and respect its policies. I have since obtained a copy of my valid railcard to avoid any future misunderstandings. I would be sincerely grateful if you would consider settling this matter outside of court, and allow me to cover any outstanding fares or administrative costs to resolve this mistake amicably and avoid further action.
Thank you for considering my explanation. Please let me know if further information is required.

Please let me know what you all think.
Thanks

Was the railcard valid during the journey you made? if so, explicitly say that you did have a railcard covering the journey in question, but that you didn't have it on you. For example say something along the lines of "I have a 16-25 railcard that was valid at the time of my journey on [DATE], where I spoke with your ticket inspector, I apologise for not being able to provide it on the train. Please find a photocopy of this railcard enclosed." And enclose the evidence!

 

[Hivisflower]

What Chiltern is probably referring to is that they assume you do not have, and never had, a 16-25 railcard. Therefore, they assume that all tickets you have ever bought with such a discount are fraudulent in their view. Others may be best place to say if they agree that is a likely read of what Chiltern mean.

Was the railcard valid during the journey you made? if so, explicitly say that you did have a railcard covering the journey in question, but that you didn't have it on you. For example say something along the lines of "I have a 16-25 railcard that was valid at the time of my journey on [DATE], where I spoke with your ticket inspector, I apologise for not being able to provide it on the train. Please find a photocopy of this railcard enclosed." And enclose the evidence!

Thanks for the response. The railcard I have now is a replacement for the one I was meant to have with me on this journey- the original one I've lost, hence why I ordered a replacement. Or am I being naive and what you're saying is to use the fact that I ordered a replacement railcard as proof I had an eligible and valid railcard at the time of this journey? Apologies If I'm missing the point. Thank you for your patience.

Important point: can you prove you had a railcard covering the date you travelled, e.g. through the replacement for a lost railcard, with the same validity dates as the one you lost, as discussed upthread?


If so, I would make that the main part of your response, apologising for not being able to show your railcard on the train, but that you were in posession of a valid 16-25 railcard at the time, enclosing your evidence. This would also address their concerns regarding failing to pay the correct fare on other occasions.

EDITED to add: if they do go ahead with taking you to court, you may wish to consider whether you qualify for legal aid and get a solicitor. A solicitor would be able to advice on whether legal aid is possible

I have email receipts showing I ordered a replacement railcard on the 13/10- this railcard is now in my possession and is valid until 2026.

 

[Hadders]

I have no way of finding out the number of times I've travelled with an invalid ticket in the past so I'm not sure if it's worth me covering that point? What do you think?

You can obtain this information from the purchase history of your online ticketing account. Chiltern have already researched it, they mention in their letter so my view is you can't ignore it in your reply.

Dear XXX,
I am writing in response to your letter regarding my travel on 6th October when I was unable to produce my valid railcard for the discounted ticket. I sincerely apologise for this oversight, I assure you that it was unintentional and will not happen in the future.
The ticket was purchased using my 16-25 railcard, which is valid until Feb26, and I realise that I failed to present it during my journey. I deeply regret this error and fully understand the importance of adhering to ticketing regulations.
I value the service provided by Chiltern Railways and respect its policies. I have since obtained a copy of my valid railcard to avoid any future misunderstandings. I would be sincerely grateful if you would consider settling this matter outside of court, and allow me to cover any outstanding fares or administrative costs to resolve this mistake amicably and avoid further action.
Thank you for considering my explanation. Please let me know if further information is required.

The explanation over the railcard is confusing. Have you actually obtained a copy of the railcard (i.e. a re-print of it) or have you purchased a new one? I think you need to be very careful how you explain this.

ALso, I'm not really sure you can say you respect Chiltern's policies when from what you've told us you've travelled without a railcard before.

 

[Knoodlepot]

I have email receipts showing I ordered a replacement railcard on the 13/10- this railcard is now in my possession and is valid until 2026.

That's not the important receipt.
You will need the receipt you had lost before.
The email receipt should prove you had one before.

Showing them a receipt of a product after you were caught does not work

 

[CyrusWuff]

That's not the important receipt.
You will need the receipt you had lost before.
The email receipt should prove you had one before.

Showing them a receipt of a product after you were caught does not work

I'd suggest that there's a caveat to that if the OP holds a Santander 16-25 Railcard, as those are issued for four years.

So if one was presented with an expiry date in 2026, I'd hope Chiltern would accept one was held from 2022.

 

[Knoodlepot]

I'd suggest that there's a caveat to that if the OP holds a Santander 16-25 Railcard, as those are issued for four years.

So if one was presented with an expiry date in 2026, I'd hope Chiltern would accept one was held from 2022.

Issue is that Chiltern don't know as the OP was unable to find it and show it at the time of inspection.
And is unable to find it.

But he can always show the email for proof of having such a YP Railcard.

 

[WesternLancer]

A quick read of this makes me suggest the OP clarify if they replaced their lost Railcard using the procedure as set out here:

1)

Lost/Stolen - 16-25 Railcard

A 16-25 Railcard costs just �30 and it'll save you 1/3 on rail fares throughout Great Britain for a whole year.

www.16-25railcard.co.uk

Or

2) 'replaced' the lost Railcard by simply buying a new one that only commenced when the new one was purchased

If (2) then that won't work in terms of having a valid Railcard that they were able to show at the time of the ticket check concerned - if 1) they are in a better position.

 

[Starmill]

Surely the OP has an email from 2022 confirming their order for a railcard via Santander?

 

[CyrusWuff]

Surely the OP has an email from 2022 confirming their order for a railcard via Santander?

For clarification, I'm not saying the OP does hold a Santander Railcard, but it's an example of where a card with an expiry date in 2026 would indicate one was held in 2022, given they're valid for four years.

 

[Knoodlepot]

I bought it online through Santander. Ok I'll have a look at the website. Thanks

OP has said he obtained it through Santander and that they were going to go onto the website to look at replacing the railcard.

 

[Trainbike46]

Thanks for the response. The railcard I have now is a replacement for the one I was meant to have with me on this journey- the original one I've lost, hence why I ordered a replacement. Or am I being naive and what you're saying is to use the fact that I ordered a replacement railcard as proof I had an eligible and valid railcard at the time of this journey? Apologies If I'm missing the point. Thank you for your patience.

In my view, you should explain clearly what happened, which as I understand it is:
- you had a Santander 16-25 railcard
- when asked to show your railcard on the chiltern service, you realised you lost it
- Chiltern started their investigation
- you ordered a replacement railcard using the lost railcard process, which you have now received

So you should explain that, while you didn't have a railcard on you at the time you spoke to the inspector, you did pay for a 16-25 railcard. Provide evidence for this, ideally a receipt from when you originally got it, and a photocopy of the replacement card.

 

[Starmill]

For clarification, I'm not saying the OP does hold a Santander Railcard, but it's an example of where a card with an expiry date in 2026 would indicate one was held in 2022, given they're valid for four years.

Absolutely, yes. I'm in total agreement - just suggesting the OP clarifies after they've searched their inbox properly.

 

[Hivisflower]

Hi all, thank you for the responses.

I've done some digging and found the email receipt from 2022 of the original railcard, which is attached below.

Yes indeed I went through the Santander website to order a replacement railcard and the email receipt for the replacement is attached below also.

I'll attach these two receipts aswell as a picture of my replacement railcard in the email.

My draft for this email is below, hopefully this clarifies my situation, please let me know what you all think:

Dear XXX

I am writing in response to your letter regarding my travel on 6th October when I was unable to produce my 16-25 railcard. I sincerely apologise for this oversight, I assure you that it was unintentional and will not happen again in the future

At the time of my ticket purchase, I held a valid 16-25 Railcard purchased in 2022, which I had unfortunately lost prior to my travel. When asked to provide the railcard during my journey, I was unable to do so as I had not yet realised it was missing. Subsequently, I ordered a replacement Railcard through the official Santander lost/stolen replacement process, which I have since received.

To clarify, I did have a valid 16-25 Railcard at the time of purchasing my ticket, and have provided below email receipts of my original Railcard order confirmation from Santander in February 2022, as proof that my Railcard was valid during this period. I have also attached the purchase confirmation of my replacement railcard from Santandar dated October 13th 2024 and a recent picture of said replacement railcard.

Please accept this as evidence that indeed I have owned a railcard since 2022, it is valid until 2026, and upon realising it was no longer in my possession, I purchased a replacement railcard through the official Santander lost/stolen process.

I fully appreciate the necessity and importance of adhering to ticketing regulations and apologise for the inconvenience caused. I kindly request that you consider my explanation, along with the evidence of my Railcard purchases, and allow me to settle any outstanding fares or administrative fees to resolve this matter outside of court.

Thank you for your time and consideration, and please let me know if further documentation is required to support my case.

Yours sincerely,


I have until Thursday 28th to send this, thank you all for your help so far.

 

[Hadders]

It's good that you've managed to find the original railcard receipt as this puts you in a stronger position. I think the letter clarifies the position. Please do keep us updated in how you get on.