Chiltern Railways between Birmingham and London - always this bad?

[philthetube]

(*“no such benefits” I assume

There are some very good prices available for advance fares between Oxford and London (for example), so I'm not sure that's entirely true.

again not their core market, try getting a good price from Princess Risborough or other places in that area.

 

[gallafent]

Indeed the pricing policy of Chiltern does seem skewed to attract London to Birmingham traffic, with bargain advance tickets available, whereas shorter distance travellers get so such benefits!

There are some very good prices available for advance fares between Oxford and London (for example), so I'm not sure that's entirely true.

again not their core market, try getting a good price from Princess Risborough or other places in that area.

There was no mention of their “core market” (definition?) until yours. Oxford <-> London is a shorter distance than Birmingham <-> London, and does have the benefit of bargain advance tickets being available, which is all that I was noting. A quick check suggests that there are indeed no advance singles available between Princes Risborough and London, sure. I guess Chiltern figures it doesn't need to discount that particular journey, perhaps because there isn't as much competition there (Oxford <-> London has both the GWR route, and the express coaches, each of which can offer a very good (and often superior) alternative, depending on where in Oxford and London your endpoints are … and so price competition is a straightforward way to keep themselves in the game (GWR has certainly had advance fares available between Oxford and London for years, since well before the Chiltern service started)), but, whatever the reason, it's their commercial prerogative to offer, or not, advance fares between station pairs they serve, surely?

If we are now diverting to trying to define “core market” though, then I'd suggest that the quantity of trains serving Oxford and Birmingham, as well as their length (and their mostly using “Mainline” or loco-hauled stock) indicates that services from Oxford or Birmingham to London /are/ at least two of their core markets.

There are 2 Chiltern trains per hour between Oxford and London in each direction through the day off peak … which is the same number as Princes Risborough, as far as I can see.

I won't go on, but using the term “core market”, without defining what it means, is a bit … meaningless.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think it means "places where another TOC is not an option" - so you're talking middle-distance commuters south of Banbury, primarily.

 

[gallafent]

I think it means "places where another TOC is not an option" - so you're talking middle-distance commuters south of Banbury, primarily.

OK, that figures as a working hypothesis, … but I have a strong suspicion that the lack of advance fares on such services is generally true on other lines too, isn't it? … does LNR offer advance fares between (say) Leighton Buzzard or Berkhamsted and Euston, I wonder? … Likewise GWR between Reading or Slough and Paddington? I haven't looked at either case, and that's a genuine question. Of course it remains up to a TOC to design its fares model according to its whims

If advance fares are “designed” to smooth out load on longer routes by getting price-sensitive travellers onto more lightly loaded services, then almost by definition they won't be chosen for or deployed on the “core routes” over shorter distances and where a TOC has exclusivity, because those core routes are the ones on which all the trains are fairly well loaded all through the day, they're fairly frequent, etc., and so there's no requirement to do that load balancing, and so why lose the fare revenue?

 

[pt_mad]

Slightly off topic but directly related to the thread title.

What are the catering arrangements on the Silver Sets now? I remember they used to have a mini buffet counter near the business zone. Is it a trolley service now?

 

[D.K.TAYLOR]

If i am not in a hurry to get to London always choose Chiltern Silver Train beat a hardboard 390 seat with cheap affordable advance tickets always come back from Euston 20-03 always wedged but reasonable priced return to Coventry Chiltern always get the vote

 

[superalbs]

What are the catering arrangements on the Silver Sets now?

None.

 

[Mikey C]

4 car, I'm betting?

A awful lot of LNWR services do seem to be 4 car, is that down to stock shortage at the moment or platform lengths? Or just the way the franchise contract works, as it feels a bit odd when the nearby Thameslink services to Bedford are now fixed 12 car trains.

 

[trash80]

again not their core market, try getting a good price from Princess Risborough or other places in that area.

I agree they are expensive in some routes, a couple of years ago i did BMO-AYS and as i had a bit of spare time decided to go from Aylesbury to Amersham, the ticket for not a long journey at all was nearly half as much as i'd paid from Brum to Aylesbury.

 

[MML]

Any chance of increasing the length of the Silver trains ? Are there enough spare MK3s to allow an additional coach per set ?
It would allow short-term capacity growth.

 

[Bletchleyite]

A awful lot of LNWR services do seem to be 4 car, is that down to stock shortage at the moment or platform lengths? Or just the way the franchise contract works, as it feels a bit odd when the nearby Thameslink services to Bedford are now fixed 12 car trains.

It's down to the expensive mileage-based contracts on the Class 350/2s, I believe. Other than the Crewe services and the amount of stock generally there is no technical reason why everything couldn't be 12 car to Northampton then 8 north thereof.

 

[fishquinn]

Any chance of increasing the length of the Silver trains ? Are there enough spare MK3s to allow an additional coach per set ?
It would allow short-term capacity growth.

I'm sure there'd be other problems with doing that but a major one I can think of is that 7 coaches, a 68 and a DVT wouldn't fit into either bay platform at Moor Street - a 6 coach is already quite a squeeze. Given the lack of catering nowadays I'd say that removing the business zone in favour of another standard class coach would be a better idea given the small number of people who use it (particularly during the day).

 

[Railwaysceptic]

But you need HS2 to solve WCML south capacity more generally, so it might as well serve the Brum market whilst its at it.

Those opposing HS2 question the severity of the capacity issue on the southern portion of the WCML. They also wonder if more use could be made of the slow lines. Most of all, they believe there are far more urgent capacity problems elsewhere.

 

[CyrusWuff]

Given the lack of catering nowadays I'd say that removing the business zone in favour of another standard class coach would be a better idea given the small number of people who use it (particularly during the day).

The problem with doing that is that the Business Zone coach (GFW - Galley First Wheelchair - in coaching stock terms) is the one with the Universal Toilet and wheelchair space, so you'd need to provide that in any replacement vehicle.

 

[boxy321]

The 68 hauled trains have broken down quite often recently and been replaced with inadequate 168s. A lot of the inter-carriage doors are starting to fail too, with seat arm rests held together with gaffer tape and the like. Something in the class 165 upholstry makes them smell foul and makes my nose tingle.

Moor Street often needs the barriers opening due to numbers of passengers alighting and incoming trains resemble Central London tube services in the morning. Solihull is woefully inadequate, with bad queuing at the single staircase during peaks. The service is currently OK though, but any more passengers and things will get really bad. If a single WM train is late or cancelled the Chiltern service shortly after it was due will be rammed full.

It is unfair expecting Chiltern to take WCML loads during disruption. Same as it was crazy to try and put the 7:22 Pendolino passengers on a 4 coach Voyager yesterday morning from Coventry to Brum after the incident near Rugby.

 

[gazzaa2]

This weekend has been the first time I’ve used Chiltern Railways to get from Birmingham to London (normally use the Virgin into Euston).

Have to say - without catering provisioning and the door of one of the large disabled toilets malfunctioning to stay resolutely jammed open - both trains I have been on between Moor Street and Marylebone (I’m on the return now and haven’t manage to get a seat as yet - nearly halfway into the journey) have been severely crush loaded.

Is this a normal occurrence with Chiltern (so switching back to Virgin in future) - or would weekend travel with Chiltern be given another chance?

New Street-Euston service is even worse in terms of supply and demand. Ridiculously overcrowded.

Moor Street-Marylebone on a typical day isn't too bad.

HS2 would at least relieve some of the pressure.

 

[dk1]

I quite like using Chiltern now & again especially as it gives me the chance to nip into the Centenary Lounge at Moor Street, however on a day to day basis it has to be Virgin for sheer speed & frequency. It really is an excellent service most of the time.

 

[gallafent]

try getting a good price from Princess Risborough or other places in that area

It might be worth trying between now and January 20th, there's a seat sale on at the moment

https://www.chilternrailways.co.uk/jan-sale/

Sadly GWR don't seem to be doing one this year!

 

[cactustwirly]

It's good if it's a 68 hauled set, the last time I used this service it was a heavily overcrowded 168 which wasn't great.

 

[route:oxford]

Sadly GWR don't seem to be doing one this year!

It's already been and gone.

 

[Meerkat]

Am I just being cynical in thinking that the DfT will skew the Chiltern franchise to make sure it can’t compete with its precious HS2?

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Am I just being cynical in thinking that the DfT will skew the Chiltern franchise to make sure it can’t compete with its precious HS2?

The Chiltern line would require substantial improvement works, and a brand new fleet, for the journey times to become anywhere near competitive with HS2. It's just not going to happen. It's a London (and to a lesser extent South/West Midlands) commuter franchise; the Birmingham expresses are nice and create strong competition for travel between the first and second cities in the country, but ultimately they are not the primary focus of the operation. I can foresee some more stations having additional platforms and turnback loops added to enable a potential increase in capacity, and perhaps off-peak tph being increased in certain areas where the trains are busy (and would otherwise be sat doing nothing in sidings or platforms). But I don't see what kind of major changes can reasonably be expected.

 

[Meerkat]

I was thinking DfT forcing Chiltern to focus away from Birmingham
It would never compete on speed but I am just not convinced the market is speed orientated, so they might have to restrict price competition so they can fill those huge HS2 trains.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

I was thinking DfT forcing Chiltern to focus away from Birmingham
It would never compete on speed but I am just not convinced the market is speed orientated, so they might have to restrict price competition so they can fill those huge HS2 trains.

I think that's unlikely. Whilst it is true that the DfT did not directly fund the Evergreen improvements, had the improvements not gone ahead (at least not those necessary for the Birmingham 'Mainline' service), the DfT could have expected a bigger premium. So in effect it was still paid for by the DfT, and thus I think they'll be reticent to abandon an improvement that they themselves have paid for.

Even if price competition were limited, Birmingham 'Mainline' services would remain a useful boon for the towns and cities on the route that wouldn't otherwise even have a (direct) London service at all, i.e. the Birmingham-Leamington corridor.

 

[cle]

I was thinking DfT forcing Chiltern to focus away from Birmingham
It would never compete on speed but I am just not convinced the market is speed orientated, so they might have to restrict price competition so they can fill those huge HS2 trains.

I would wager that comes through the future 'Pendo' (legacy WCML, whatever stock they use) - services all calling at Milton Keynes and probably Watford Junction and Rugby too. Maybe other places also, like Bletchley or the Northampton loop. Or Willesden Junction!

Those services will slow down to Chiltern-type running times, the WCML becoming a semi-fast pair to HS2's fast - and by virtue/default, those time-pressed will migrate naturally to HS2.

 

[Meerkat]

Slower trains, stopping more, will be the plan but will be resisted by places like Coventry, Rugby, Stoke etc.
Unless they restrict price competition I think lots of the market will stick on the classic lines and HS2 is going to struggle off peak (or they will ruin the classic lines by having to discount off peak so much to stop HS2 carrying fresh air)

 

[Tetchytyke]

Unless they restrict price competition I think lots of the market will stick on the classic lines and HS2 is going to struggle off peak

HS2 is going to struggle full stop. The premiums they'll have to charge to fund it will make HS1 fares look like pocket money. That said, HS1 shows how you can slow "classic" trains down so much that they become unappealing even to leisure passengers.

Back to Chiltern, friends in the Bucks commuter belt are also noticing standards are slipping. It's inevitable once any business reaches a certain size of market. Why try when they come anyway?

 

[Roger100]

When I lived in Slough I tried several routes to Birmingham, those mentioned earlier plus Reading to New Street on Crosscountry. These trips often featured standing all the way and were most unpleasant. Euston never impressed me - the lack of tube station meant a walk in the rain was sometime necessary. My experience with Chiltern was Class 68 hauled trains which were lovely compared with the rest, Marylebone being easier to get to than Euston. HS2 looked good if I used Old Oak Common.

But living up in the North East now, its academic and the only choice is Crosscountry.

 

[The Planner]

Am I just being cynical in thinking that the DfT will skew the Chiltern franchise to make sure it can’t compete with its precious HS2?

We will find out in a couple of years when Chiltern comes up for re-franchising. I doubt they will tinker much with it to be honest as it will be running for a few years before HS2 even gets going.

Back to Chiltern, friends in the Bucks commuter belt are also noticing standards are slipping. It's inevitable once any business reaches a certain size of market. Why try when they come anyway?

Partly down to the fact Chiltern are paying premiums back now and will quietly cut corners to make sure they can pay those premiums.

 

[gazthomas]

I don't think Chiltern has been the same since it was acquired by Arriva (and of course ultimately DB)