Chiltern Railways operation of East West Rail (EWR)

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Just a few questions specifically regarding how Chiltern Railways were recently announced as the operator of initial EWR services. I appreciate some of the answers may not yet be known.

Do we know if the hired 196/0 fleet planned to work services will be repainted/refurbished into Chiltern Railways interior/exterior? The interior is fairly neutral, but the orange and purple of the current livery that they were is very clearly and obviously West Midlands Railway, who I must confess to have expected to operate the service.

Are there any chances of seeing 165/168 ever running on Oxford - Bedford/Milton Keynes / Aylesbury - Milton Keynes services, bearing in mind both classes currently run Oxford - Bicester Village (and continuing to London) and Aylesbury services?

In turn, and I appreciate it'd almost definitely not be booked, but would we potentially see 196s slip onto Oxford Marylebone every now and then, or maybe even Aylesbury Princes Risb? Tripcock restrictions would probably prevent an appearance on the Metropolitan line.

It'd be especially interesting also to see whether or not the operator changes when in the likely fairly-distant future services eventually run onto Cambridge.

 

[craigybagel]

I would suspect that the stations on EWR won't be provided with platform based DOO equipment (monitors/mirrors) that Chiltern uses on its 165/168 operated DOO services. Given it seems highly unlikely DfT will want to pay for guards on a brand new route, it seems likely that 196s will be the only units that will be able to be used.

I suspect also that DOO issues played a part in giving the route to Chiltern's Banbury depot rather than the geographically more obvious LNWR Bletchley depot.

 

[william.martin]

I can imagine that the 196's wouldn't be permanent if they did go as after all WMR may still need them in the long term however with the state of 172's they can probably get away in the short term future.

Not fact however I wouldn't be surprised if Chiltern ordered a fleet of there own to work the line.

 

[newtownmgr]

It’s only a short term hire & will probably just be a rebranding on the side. Ultimately EWR will be ordering there own units & having there own train crew

 

[swt_passenger]

Ultimately EWR will be ordering there own units & having there own train crew

However many of us seem to think EWR on its own won’t be a big enough setup to justify being a standalone organisation.

 

[zwk500]

Do we know if the hired 196/0 fleet planned to work services will be repainted/refurbished into Chiltern Railways interior/exterior? The interior is fairly neutral, but the orange and purple of the current livery that they were is very clearly and obviously West Midlands Railway, who I must confess to have expected to operate the service.

Might get 'Chiltern Railways' vinyls but I suspect no complete rebranding, but nothing confirmed.

Are there any chances of seeing 165/168 ever running on Oxford - Bedford/Milton Keynes / Aylesbury - Milton Keynes services, bearing in mind both classes currently run Oxford - Bicester Village (and continuing to London) and Aylesbury services?

Not completely impossible if they're cleared for the line, which Chiltern may well do - they're quite switched on about getting clearances in place that come in handy later on. Aylesbury-MK isn't opening as part of EWR, it's a later option, so that won't happen yet. However Chiltern are very unlikely to get guards to sign the route so the chances of seeing it are extremely slim.

In turn, and I appreciate it'd almost definitely not be booked, but would we potentially see 196s slip onto Oxford Marylebone every now and then, or maybe even Aylesbury Princes Risb? Tripcock restrictions would probably prevent an appearance on the Metropolitan line.

I'd be very, very surprised if it happened as I doubt anybody other than Banbury drivers on Chiltern will sign 196s so you'd risk stranding the set with nobody passed on it, given it would only ever happen in serious disruption. I'm also not sure if the Chiltern ATP removal is complete yet.

It'd be especially interesting also to see whether or not the operator changes when in the likely fairly-distant future services eventually run onto Cambridge.

We don't yet know what the corporate structure of the railway will look like in that for off distant future. TOCs could be a thing of the past. It's not even decided which operator will cover the Oxford-Bedford and Bedford-Bletchley services yet (which may not be the same TOC).

 

[newtownmgr]

However many of us seem to think EWR on its own won’t be a big enough setup to justify being a standalone organisation.

Already have tenders out for new units. The 196’s will ultimately have to return to WMT if the West Mids regional plan is to go ahead as announced recently. Extra Herefords etc etc

 

[SuperLuke2334]

Already have tenders out for new units. The 196’s will ultimately have to return to WMT if the West Mids regional plan is to go ahead as announced recently. Extra Herefords etc etc

Is that more like a half hourly service to Hereford? Or only to the likes of Great Malvern etc.?

 

[Halish Railway]

Is that more like a half hourly service to Hereford? Or only to the likes of Great Malvern etc.?

The aspiration is half-hourly to Hereford, originating at Birmingham Moor Street, as well as restoring the pre-pandemic two WMR trains per hour to Shrewsbury.

 

[SuperLuke2334]

The aspiration is half-hourly to Hereford, originating at Birmingham Moor Street, as well as restoring the pre-pandemic two WMR trains per hour to Shrewsbury.

Oh lovely. So no Herefords to New St or 1 per hour to each?

 

[Halish Railway]

Oh lovely. So no Herefords to New St or 1 per hour to each?

Split between the two - I should have made that a bit clearer!

 

[SuperLuke2334]

Split between the two - I should have made that a bit clearer!

Thank you, that's appreciated.

 

[D365]

It'd be especially interesting also to see whether or not the operator changes when in the likely fairly-distant future services eventually run onto Cambridge.

Depending on what the service patterns [eventually] end up looking like - what’s to say it might not be multiple operators?

 

[JonathanH]

Already have tenders out for new units.

Do they? Wasn't that cancelled because 196s were taken on?

There was a plan for 12-14 units, but the 196s are meeting that need.

I think you are referring to this https://bidstats.uk/tenders/2020/W46/738852881

Did it ever move on from being a prior information notice to an actual tender?

Interim Rolling Stock and Maintenance Provision
A Prior Information Notice
by EAST WEST RAILWAY COMPANY

Description
The publication of this PIN is to engage with the Rolling Stock (and Maintenance) marketplace and gain insight into the likely level of interest from providers.

The East West Railway Company (EWR Co.) is looking to leasing a fleet of 12 or 14 x 3 car self-powered units with modifications including European Train Control System (‘ETCS’) Level 2 and Driver Controlled Operation (‘DCO’) capability, supported by a full maintenance package (under a ‘wet’ lease). These units will ensure timely operation of EWR’s Western Section Phase 2 between Oxford, Milton Keynes, Bedford and Aylesbury. The lease duration would be 4 years, with an option to extend for 2 years.

 

[newtownmgr]

Do they? Wasn't that cancelled because 196s were taken on?

There was a plan for 12-14 units, but the 196s are meeting that need.

I think you are referring to this https://bidstats.uk/tenders/2020/W46/738852881

Did it ever move on from being a prior information notice to an actual tender?

Assumed the tender was still active. They are only sub leasing 6 x 2 car 196’s & WMT will need them back at some point if the plans for the additional Herefords etc is to happen.

 

[JonathanH]

Assumed the tender was still active. They are only sub leasing 6 x 2 car 196’s & WMT will need them back at some point if the plans for the additional Herefords etc is to happen.

I guess those are the questions. Did taking on the surplus 196s mean the tender didn't proceed? At what point are WMR going to actually need their 196s back? Will 6 2-car 196s provide the capacity required on EWR? It certainly doesn't imply an air of optimism about passenger loadings.

 

[newtownmgr]

I guess those are the questions. Did taking on the surplus 196s mean the tender didn't proceed? At what point are WMR going to actually need their 196s back? Will 6 2-car 196s provide the capacity required on EWR? It certainly doesn't imply an air of optimism about passenger loadings.

Think the 196’s are only ever short term to cover the initial services between Oxford & Milton Keynes & they won’t be getting anymore than 6 as that will leave WMR short.

 

[JonathanH]

Think the 196’s are only ever short term to cover the initial services between Oxford & Milton Keynes & they won’t be getting anymore than 6 as that will leave WMR short.

In the past there has been speculation about 175s for EWR, and indeed for Chiltern as LHCS replacement. One theory could be that putting EWR with Chiltern would enable all 27 175s to have a role. However, I suspect that is reading too much into it.

How long does EWR have use of the 196s, noting that it is still eighteen months before operations start.

Would EWR need a new tender for taking on existing units such as 175s? Surely it would now be Chiltern issuing the tender in any case?

 

[RailWonderer]

If the station rebuilds will mean longer platforms it could be a single 3 car or a double 2 car 196 will operate on the line if loadings pick up. If EWR are short of stock then, they can always hire in a few more DMUs when they become available through cascades in years to come.

 

[JonathanH]

If EWR are short of stock then, they can always hire in a few more DMUs when they become available through cascades in years to come.

...or rearrange the Chiltern diagrams. If Chiltern are now the operator for EWR, won't rolling stock decisions be considered in the context of the overall Chiltern fleet requirement?

The original posting asked the question about 165/168 working EWR services, but I don't think those have cameras for DOO, instead relying on 'look back' / mirrors which won't be possible on EWR.

 

[newtownmgr]

...or rearrange the Chiltern diagrams. If Chiltern are now the operator for EWR, won't rolling stock decisions be considered in the context of the overall Chiltern fleet requirement?

The original posting asked the question about 165/168 working EWR services, but I don't think those have cameras for DOO, instead relying on 'look back' / mirrors which won't be possible on EWR.

196’s have had the doo equipment isolated & modified for guard control of the doors.

 

[Brubulus]

EWR should be operated as a third dedicated subrand of WMR with units maintained at Bletchley for light maintainance/refuelling and Tysely can do heavier maintainance. An extra 196 should be ordered before it goes out of production so it can act as a self contained fleet with a spare with all units given an extra coach as 2 car units are not going to be able to cope for the medium term. The 196s should stay until the line reaches Cambridge, then alternative units for EWR can be considered.

 

[JonathanH]

196’s have had the doo equipment isolated & modified for guard control of the doors.

That doesn't mean it can't be unwound for EWR operation by Chiltern. As others have posted, it would be surprising that a new route could open without DOO operation, although admittedly Bletchley to Milton Keynes might be an issue. Oxford to Bicester Village is DOO for Chiltern.

Is the DOO position known?

 

[D365]

An extra 196 should be ordered before it goes out of production so it can act as a self contained fleet with a spare with all units given an extra coach as 2 car units are not going to be able to cope for the medium term.

If only fleet planning was that easy!

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I guess those are the questions. Did taking on the surplus 196s mean the tender didn't proceed? At what point are WMR going to actually need their 196s back? Will 6 2-car 196s provide the capacity required on EWR? It certainly doesn't imply an air of optimism about passenger loadings.

This tiny number is what makes me feel sure they must have some 165s ot 168s supplementing them on the route somehow.

 

[zwk500]

This tiny number is what makes me feel sure they must have some 165s ot 168s supplementing them on the route somehow.

MK-Oxford only requires 4 diagrams. It would be nice if they had enough to run all diagrams as 4-car from the off, but I suspect that having alternate diagrams as 2- and 4-car will be reasonable at first until the Bedford services come in. They could also run them as all 2-car with 1 ready spare and 1 on shed, but I'd be nervous about that not being quite enough capacity.