Chiltern railways query

[Monk2688]

Hi Folks,

I have a query and I was hoping for some guidance. My wife was travelling from London to high wycombe on chiltern railways. We are relatively new to the country and we were not aware that it is required for the rail card user to be with the ticket holder. She was stopped by the ticket inspector and she filled a form and provided id and address details. She also provided the details of my railcard. We may also have taken a train earlier this week at 9:29 while I now understand that the offpeak starts after 9:30 am.

We have also analysed the past tickets bought from trainline. While my wives history is clear, I may have bought tickets and travelled may be 2-3 times without knowing the timings of offpeak trains.

We have written to the fraud team apologizing for the incident and made them aware that we fully understand our mistake and offered to pay.

My questions:

1. Could there be a chance of prosecution? If yes, what could be the percentage?
2. Should I engage a lawyer now or once I receive the letter?
3. Could I be also investigated for the times when I travelled unknowingly on trains during peak times?

I know its a mistake from our side and we are okay to accept and pay the fares but we want to avoid court at any cost.

Thanks in advance.

 

[AlterEgo]

Hi Folks,

I have a query and I was hoping for some guidance. My wife was travelling from London to high wycombe on chiltern railways. We are relatively new to the country and we were not aware that it is required for the rail card user to be with the ticket holder.

Which railcard was being used here?

She was stopped by the ticket inspector and she filled a form and provided id and address details. She also provided the details of my railcard.

Was she carrying your railcard at the time?

We may also have taken a train earlier this week at 9:29 while I now understand that the offpeak starts after 9:30 am.

That depends on the route - this is not a blanket rule at all.

We have also analysed the past tickets bought from trainline. While my wives history is clear, I may have bought tickets and travelled may be 2-3 times without knowing the timings of offpeak trains.

If you are buying tickets against an itinerary they are de facto valid - can you give some details of the journeys (the origin and destination of the ticket), and days and times of travel?

We have written to the fraud team apologizing for the incident and made them aware that we fully understand our mistake and offered to pay.

What exactly have you received from them, and what did you send back? Please upload copies of the correspondence with your names and details removed. This is really important.

My questions:

1. Could there be a chance of prosecution? If yes, what could be the percentage?

Yes, there is a chance, but I think we need to know more about the case first.

2. Should I engage a lawyer now or once I receive the letter?

Neither - this is likely to resolved without one.

3. Could I be also investigated for the times when I travelled unknowingly on trains during peak times?

It may be that you committed no offences in this regard - see my earlier question on this.

 

[Haywain]

1. Could there be a chance of prosecution? If yes, what could be the percentage?

Yes, but it's a relatively low chance.

2. Should I engage a lawyer now or once I receive the letter?

This really isn't necessary at this stage, and is unlikely to be necessary.

3. Could I be also investigated for the times when I travelled unknowingly on trains during peak times?

Yes, but investigation doesn't necessarily result in fault being found or action being taken.

Have you received a letter from Chiltern or Transport Investigations Limited (TIL)? If you have, and you have already sent a response there is a good chance that they will send you a settlement offer in due course. Even if they don't, you will get the opportunity to make your case again. Please don't worry unduly, this is likely to prove no more than a moderately expensive mistake. In the meantime, it mat help us to advise if you can post a copy of any letter you have received and your response, with your personal details redacted.

 

[Monk2688]

Which railcard was being used here?


Was she carrying your railcard at the time?


That depends on the route - this is not a blanket rule at all.


If you are buying tickets against an itinerary they are de facto valid - can you give some details of the journeys (the origin and destination of the ticket), and days and times of travel?


What exactly have you received from them, and what did you send back? Please upload copies of the correspondence with your names and details removed. This is really important.


Yes, there is a chance, but I think we need to know more about the case first.


Neither - this is likely to resolved without one.


It may be that you committed no offences in this regard - see my earlier question on this.

Here are the answers:

1. Network Railcard
2. She was carrying the image of the railcard as I have a digital railcard
3.Route is between London and High Wycombe
4. There are multiple Journeys e.g. reading southampton, high wycombe bristol, i have the tickets but I dont remember at what time I travelled.
5. Nothing has been received so far, she just filled the form and we are waiting to hear. I has just been a week now.

Yes, but it's a relatively low chance.

This really isn't necessary at this stage, and is unlikely to be necessary.

Yes, but investigation doesn't necessarily result in fault being found or action being taken.

Have you received a letter from Chiltern or Transport Investigations Limited (TIL)? If you have, and you have already sent a response there is a good chance that they will send you a settlement offer in due course. Even if they don't, you will get the opportunity to make your case again. Please don't worry unduly, this is likely to prove no more than a moderately expensive mistake. In the meantime, it mat help us to advise if you can post a copy of any letter you have received and your response, with your personal details redacted.

Thank you for your response, it has been just a week but I havent received any response yet. We did sent an email to their fraud team apologising and offering to pay.

I have read in some cases that lawyers can get the settlement done even before receiving the first letter so does it make sense to be proactive and involve one?

 

[Haywain]

5. Nothing has been received so far, she just filled the form and we are waiting to hear. I has just been a week now.

In which case, this was a bit premature:

We have written to the fraud team apologizing for the incident and made them aware that we fully understand our mistake and offered to pay.

I have read in some cases that lawyers can get the settlement done even before receiving the first letter so does it make sense to be proactive and involve one?

That can happen, but (at a guess) you are likely to be asked to pay TIL an amount of around £200 to £300. Employing a solicitor to assist you will cost you around £500 to £800 on top of the amount TIL ask for, based on other cases we have seen on the forums.

 

[AlterEgo]

Here are the answers:

1. Network Railcard
2. She was carrying the image of the railcard as I have a digital railcard

I really hope your wife did not claim ignorance as you did in your opening post. No reasonable person would think that my railcard, which costs £30 a year with my name and face on it, could be used by another person. The obvious question is, why would anyone pay £30 for a railcard when, as long as you just have a screen grab of someone else's, that would be fine?

I mean, why did you pay for yours? You could have just come on here and asked for a screen grab of someone else's, if you thought that was okay.

5. Nothing has been received so far, she just filled the form and we are waiting to hear. I has just been a week now.

Did you take copies of what was filled in on the form? What was said in response? What has been said will inform Chiltern's next response.

Ignore all the off peak stuff for now, and best to deal with the immediate matter at hand.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Just to support the other responses - there's no need to communicate further until the railway (or TIL on their behalf) get back to you.

As a slight word of warning, it may well be that the letter will be headed something like 'Notice of intended prosecution' which sounds quite worrying. But if you read the letter closely you will very probably find that it's actually a request for information so that the railway can make a decision about whether to prosecute or offer you the chance to settle.

At that point we may well be able to advise you on the best way forward - so we think it will be good if you come back to us then before deciding if you need a solicitor.

 

[Monk2688]

I really hope your wife did not claim ignorance as you did in your opening post. No reasonable person would think that my railcard, which costs £30 a year with my name and face on it, could be used by another person. The obvious question is, why would anyone pay £30 for a railcard when, as long as you just have a screen grab of someone else's, that would be fine?

I mean, why did you pay for yours? You could have just come on here and asked for a screen grab of someone else's, if you thought that was okay.



Did you take copies of what was filled in on the form? What was said in response? What has been said will inform Chiltern's next response.

Ignore all the off peak stuff for now, and best to deal with the immediate matter at hand.

1. I understand from where you are coming from but it is difficult for a person from another country to underStand these things. I understand it may not be the best answer but it was the fact.

2. The form was filled on ipad so no copies received.

 

[AlterEgo]

1. I understand from where you are coming from but it is difficult for a person from another country to underStand these things. I understand it may not be the best answer but it was the fact.

No, it is not difficult to understand that a paid-for railcard with someone else's name and face on can't just be shared around other people, for the reasons I gave. Take it from someone who's travelled to nearly 100 countries; this is not something culturally unique to the UK. There's a reason you bought yours and didn't just find a screen grab online. I do not recommend using this line of defence in any correspondence with the train company. No reasonable person will believe it.

2. The form was filled on ipad so no copies received.

Was it filled out there and then? What admissions were made?

 

[Monk2688]

No, it is not difficult to understand that a paid-for railcard with someone else's name and face on can't just be shared around other people, for the reasons I gave. Take it from someone who's travelled to nearly 100 countries; this is not something culturally unique to the UK. There's a reason you bought yours and didn't just find a screen grab online. I do not recommend using this line of defence in any correspondence with the train company. No reasonable person will believe it.


Was it filled out there and then? What admissions were made?

what do you recommend then? Should we contact a lawyer and get ahead of it? Its a fact that this was the reason.

 

[Haywain]

No, it is not difficult to understand that a paid-for railcard with someone else's name and face on can't just be shared around other people, for the reasons I gave. Take it from someone who's travelled to nearly 100 countries; this is not something culturally unique to the UK. There's a reason you bought yours and didn't just find a screen grab online. I do not recommend using this line of defence in any correspondence with the train company. No reasonable person will believe it.

I think you are being a little harsh here. It is not the first time I have come across this misunderstanding, and some may read that the railcard is valid for themself and up to 3 other adults and get hold of the wrong end of the stick. The OP is here for help, and I don't think attacking their understanding of that is helpful.

 

[WesternLancer]

I think you are being a little harsh here. It is not the first time I have come across this misunderstanding, and some may read that the railcard is valid for themself and up to 3 other adults and get hold of the wrong end of the stick.

I share this view - and isn't it the case that Network Railcard does not require a picture of the named holder (ie no photocard element to it).

Edit - digital version has pic, card version does not

 

[Iggy12a]

Unless there is an easement, on a weekday, a ticket with a Network Railcard discount applied is not valid before 10am

 

[Haywain]

isn't it the case that Network Railcard does not require a picture of the named holder (ie no photocard element to it).

I believe the digital version does have a photo.

 

[AlterEgo]

It is not the first time I have come across this misunderstanding, and some may read that the railcard is valid for themself and up to 3 other adults

Where would they read that? The only places I would ever think I could read that would be Facebook or Tiktok, and it is very clear from the Railcard in question, which bears one person's name and their identifying photo, that it is not something which can just be passed around. What is the photo for, one might ask, if just anyone can use it?

That is exactly the line a magistrate will take if one tries to use that as a defence and that is quite important, as this is Chiltern Railways matter and there is a potential for this offence to end up there. I advise the OP not to use this defence.

I share this view - and isn't it the case that Network Railcard does not require a picture of the named holder (ie no photocard element to it).

No, the digital railcard has a photo. It is very intuitive in my view that even if you knew nothing at all about this Railcard, it cannot be shared, and certainly there is no reasonable person that would think you could use this when the holder wasn't present at all.

Here is a sample:

As an aside it's extremely frustrating when posters in this part of the forum take everything which is said at face value and don't apply a Swiss Cheese test or consider how the OP's defence might look to a train company, or under cross examination. Whether it is actually true or not - the question is, is this really the defence you want to use? Is this what you want to tell the train company or a court?

 

[Haywain]

Whether it is actually true or not - the question is, is this really the defence you want to use? Is this what you want to tell the train company or a court?

I don't see anybody suggesting this defence/excuse should be put forward to the train company.

 

[Monk2688]

I think you are being a little harsh here. It is not the first time I have come across this misunderstanding, and some may read that the railcard is valid for themself and up to 3 other adults and get hold of the wrong end of the stick. The OP is here for help, and I don't think attacking their understanding of that is

Where would they read that? The only places I would ever think I could read that would be Facebook or Tiktok, and it is very clear from the Railcard in question, which bears one person's name and their identifying photo, that it is not something which can just be passed around. What is the photo for, one might ask, if just anyone can use it?

That is exactly the line a magistrate will take if one tries to use that as a defence and that is quite important, as this is Chiltern Railways matter and there is a potential for this offence to end up there. I advise the OP not to use this defence.


No, the digital railcard has a photo. It is very intuitive in my view that even if you knew nothing at all about this Railcard, it cannot be shared, and certainly there is no reasonable person that would think you could use this when the holder wasn't present at all.

Here is a sample:

As an aside it's extremely frustrating when posters in this part of the forum take everything which is said at face value and don't apply a Swiss Cheese test or consider how the OP's defence might look to a train company, or under cross examination. Whether it is actually true or not - the question is, is this really the defence you want to use? Is this what you want to tell the train company or a court?

What would you recommend in this case? What should the defense should be?

 

[Haywain]

What would you recommend in this case? What should the defense should be?

As no valid ticket was held, that is what you should apologise for. There is no necessity to put forward a 'defence' as you don't have one. On what you have told us, guilt has already been established and what the train company want is to be compensated and to be assured that you won't be doing it again.

 

[AlterEgo]

What would you recommend in this case? What should the defense should be?

I recommend not using it at all, and plainly apologising for using a discounted or invalid ticket when not allowed, as @Haywain suggests above.

Don't get into excuses and don't try to give them a story - this is a fairly low level matter, and the chances of settling are moderate. Chiltern are difficult to deal with but the important thing is to not try to give the impression of wider offending. If you claim that you actually thought this was okay, then they are going to trawl all your purchases because of course they will think you have done it before.

Keeping the reply to just one offence - the one your wife was caught - is neater and easier for you, and does not invite them to go digging further.

However we still don't know what's been said to the train company - you mention:

We have written to the fraud team apologizing for the incident and made them aware that we fully understand our mistake and offered to pay.

When did you write to them, and what did you say? Was it a handwritten letter? Because if you have already contacted them and admitted to other offences or used the line of reasoning you mentioned earlier, this strategy no longer works.

 

[Monk2688]

I recommend not using it at all, and plainly apologising for using a discounted or invalid ticket when not allowed, as @Haywain suggests above.

Don't get into excuses and don't try to give them a story - this is a fairly low level matter, and the chances of settling are moderate. Chiltern are difficult to deal with but the important thing is to not try to give the impression of wider offending. If you claim that you actually thought this was okay, then they are going to trawl all your purchases because of course they will think you have done it before.

Keeping the reply to just one offence - the one your wife was caught - is neater and easier for you, and does not invite them to go digging further.

However we still don't know what's been said to the train company - you mention:



When did you write to them, and what did you say? Was it a handwritten letter? Because if you have already contacted them and admitted to other offences or used the line of reasoning you mentioned earlier, this strategy no longer works.

It was an email just to say that what were the circumstances that we were not together ( proof with onward journey for flights and it was a match day so i decided to go to airport directly) with proof and apologizing and offering to pay. I did not mention any other instances or anything.

I do not want to wait for 6 months for their letter and I am thinking that if I do not hear from them in another four weeks, I can engage a lawyer to negotiate a settlement. Whats your opinion on this? I know it would be expensive but it would give a lot of peace of mind.

 

[Haywain]

I do not want to wait for 6 months for their letter

Although a letter *could* take up to 6 months to arrive it is unlikely to take that long, it is more likely to be 4 to 6 weeks. Be patient and stop worrying so much.

 

[WesternLancer]

It was an email just to say that what were the circumstances that we were not together ( proof with onward journey for flights and it was a match day so i decided to go to airport directly) with proof and apologizing and offering to pay. I did not mention any other instances or anything.

I do not want to wait for 6 months for their letter and I am thinking that if I do not hear from them in another four weeks, I can engage a lawyer to negotiate a settlement. Whats your opinion on this? I know it would be expensive but it would give a lot of peace of mind.

I can't see why engaging a lawyer would help expedite matters more quickly really - the case will be in a queue to get processed and then the letter will go out to you. That will happen as soon as it's allocated a reference number and in the system. Until it's in the system the lawyer can't really engage with them any faster than you could.

The best thing you can do at the moment is probably

- read the railcard's T&Cs carefully so you know what they are (if you have not now done that already) and the key rules that apply to the card's use (eg ref time valid, minimum fares rules etc)
- get your wife to buy a railcard that is in her name as it shows that you have taken action to prevent the mistake happening again.

 

[Hadders]

Welcome to the forum!

Some good advice has already been given but just to exoand on a few points:

A Network Railcard cannot be used before 10am on weekdays. Also on weekdays a minimum discounted fare of £13 applies.

As for what happens next Chiltern or a company called Transport Investigations Limited will write to you asking for your version of events. Writing to the fraud team before receiving their letter is premature and could even be counterproductive. Train companies deal with thousands of these sort of cases at any one time and I'm afraid you'll need to wait for your case to come to the top of the pile. The main reason for the delay in receiving your initial letter will probably be because Chiltern/TIL will contact Trainline to obtain details of your ticket purchasing history - this takes time.

I suggest writing a short, concise reply to the letter mentioning the following points:

- That you are sorry for what has happened
- What you have learned from the incident
- That you are keen to settle the matter without the need for court action
- Offer to pay the outstanding fare and the train company's administrative costs in dealing with the matter

If you are offered a settlement the amount tends to be around £150 plus plus the outstanding fare at teh full Anytime rate. An out of court settlement might appear to be a fine, but it isn't and you won't have a criminal record as a result of accepting one.

Feel free to post a copy of the letter once it arrives (with personal details redacted) along with your draft reply in this thread and forum members will be happy to proof read it for you.

 

[Monk2688]

Hi folks, so my wife has received communication from Chiltern over email that they will look to settle administratively and asked her to share my trainline e-mail with them. Any guidance on what I should do and what does it mean to settle administratively?

 

[Haywain]

Hi folks, so my wife has received communication from Chiltern over email that they will look to settle administratively and asked her to share my trainline e-mail with them. Any guidance on what I should do and what does it mean to settle administratively?

That means settling out of court, but that they want a look at your Trainline account first. If you don't share your account details they can just take your wife to court, so I don't see much choice for you.

 

[Hadders]

As mentioned upthread can you upload copies of what Chiltern have sent you (with personal details redacted).

It is difficult to offer appropriate advice without knowing exactly what they have asked for. I’ve not seen a request quite like this from Chiltern before.

 

[Monk2688]

Thats what the email has considering settling administratively and asking for email. As I mentioned earlier, I may have taken return trains 2-3 times between 4-7 pm (which I now understand now are peak hours) but I am not sure. What would be the risk?

 

[AlterEgo]

Please upload copies of the email with your name/s removed, it is very important that you get accurate advice on what to say back to them.

 

[Haywain]

As I mentioned earlier, I may have taken return trains 2-3 times between 4-7 pm (which I now understand now are peak hours) but I am not sure.

Whilst these are peak times for some tickets, they are not times that have any restriction on the use of a Network Railcard.

 

[Monk2688]

Folks so we received an administrative settlement quote of low three figure gbp and made the payment. Really apppreciate everyone’s help to settle this matter. Peace now.