Chiltern Railways Single Justice Procedure

[dspence159]

Hi all

I'm wondering if anyone could offer any advice.
My daughter was caught travelling without a valid ticket between Manchester-Oxford in November. She got the letter from Chiltern Railways today. I've seen the brilliant template from @Hadders elsewhere.
She is distraught. She knows she has committed a crime (and there are other occasions of travelling without a ticket they have found through her fare history).
She is vulnerable, suffering from acute mental health issues inc anorexia, which seriously affect her ability to make correct cognitive decisions. All her effort is taken up with finishing her uni course and this comes at the start of her finals. It is not an excuse but does explain her inability to think rationally- she has brain fog, and massive which fatigue can make daily tasks and encounters more taxing and difficult. As a starving person her starving brain means she cannot function optimally. She wants, when she is better, to go into law, and is petrified by the talk of criminal convictions. She has been in and out of hospital including a spell because of an overdose.
I realise there is talk of a meeting under caution but if we write a letter, acknowledging how stupid she has been, how she has learnt from this and that we will be only too happy to settle out of court, is there a likelihood it might not go to court?
Thanks all

 

[notmyrealname]

Hi.

Could you post the letter on here please? Cover up names and addresses and Chiltern's reference number.

The guys here will know what to do

 

[WesternLancer]

Hi all

I'm wondering if anyone could offer any advice.
My daughter was caught travelling without a valid ticket between Manchester-Oxford in November. She got the letter from Chiltern Railways today. I've seen the brilliant template from @Hadders elsewhere.
She is distraught. She knows she has committed a crime (and there are other occasions of travelling without a ticket they have found through her fare history).
She is vulnerable, suffering from acute mental health issues inc anorexia, which seriously affect her ability to make correct cognitive decisions. All her effort is taken up with finishing her uni course and this comes at the start of her finals. It is not an excuse but does explain her inability to think rationally- she has brain fog, and massive which fatigue can make daily tasks and encounters more taxing and difficult. As a starving person her starving brain means she cannot function optimally. She wants, when she is better, to go into law, and is petrified by the talk of criminal convictions. She has been in and out of hospital including a spell because of an overdose.
I realise there is talk of a meeting under caution but if we write a letter, acknowledging how stupid she has been, how she has learnt from this and that we will be only too happy to settle out of court, is there a likelihood it might not go to court?
Thanks all

Hi and welcome
Sorry to read about what will be a difficult situation for your daughter - final exams alone I recall being no easy time.

So are you saying they have invited her to a face to face meeting under caution?

Unfortunately Chiltern (or you may deal with their contractor for this TIL - Transport Investigations Ltd) are not easy to deal with and probably take a tougher line than many train companies. However despite this if the process is engaged with I still think it is possible to obtain an out of court settlement - and you can get help from here at each stage. Other cases with TIL often seem to invove 2 or 3 requests to settle the matter so you may need to prepare for that.

Given the seriousness of the medical aspects you mention, they can perhaps be verified with a medical letter from Dr etc , that may help support mitigating circumstances (for example the medical condition could be mentioned in 1st reply, supporting medical info could be used if a 2nd request to them is required, perhaps) to go alongside apology, recognition that what has been done is wrong, and commitment it will not happen again.

Also is there anything else she can do immediately to illustrate desire to do the right thing going forwards (eg buy a Railcard as a legitimate route to reducing her fare) - if so do that ASAP if not doen already.

I'm sure you have thought of this but assuming she is over 18 she needs to sign the letters herself or provide written authority for you to act om her behalf in respect of this - the former is probably better. No doubt any support you can give her will be of significant help to allow her to focus on the exam side of things.

Good luck with getting this sorted.

 

[dspence159]

Here's the letter:

Hi and welcome
Sorry to read about what will be a difficult situation for your daughter - final exams alone I recall being no easy time.

So are you saying they have invited her to a face to face meeting under caution?

Unfortunately Chiltern (or you may deal with their contractor for this TIL - Transport Investigations Ltd) are not easy to deal with and probably take a tougher line than many train companies. However despite this if the process is engaged with I still think it is possible to obtain an out of court settlement - and you can get help from here at each stage. Other cases with TIL often seem to invove 2 or 3 requests to settle the matter so you may need to prepare for that.

Given the seriousness of the medical aspects you mention, they can perhaps be verified with a medical letter from Dr etc , that may help support mitigating circumstances (for example the medical condition could be mentioned in 1st reply, supporting medical info could be used if a 2nd request to them is required, perhaps) to go alongside apology, recognition that what has been done is wrong, and commitment it will not happen again.

Also is there anything else she can do immediately to illustrate desire to do the right thing going forwards (eg buy a Railcard as a legitimate route to reducing her fare) - if so do that ASAP if not doen already.

I'm sure you have thought of this but assuming she is over 18 she needs to sign the letters herself or provide written authority for you to act om her behalf in respect of this - the former is probably better. No doubt any support you can give her will be of significant help to allow her to focus on the exam side of things.

Good luck with getting this sorted.

Thanks for the concern- that's really appreciated. We are distraught. Yes, she has bought a Railcard!

 

[WesternLancer]

Here's the letter:

View attachment 157355


Thanks for the concern- that's really appreciated. We are distraught. Yes, she has bought a Railcard!

Further to my prev post - can I also ask if this is the 1st letter from them that has been received? Was there anything before this letter inviting her to attend an interview?

The general advice on here about such interviews is not to attend them without a solicitor (assuming you can afford such help) - but I do of course note you are seeking to see if avoiding the interview is possible by admitting things and apologising and asking for an out of court settlement.

Is it possible that your daughter can accurately check her ticket buying and travel records to work out how many fares have been avoided to gauge what sort of sums might be involved? You will have to assume the Railway can interrogate ticket buying records and find all purchase records linked to her on line buying (from any / all ticket retailers) or use of a bank card at eg a ticket machine, so important for her to be honest with herself, and you, about the scale of this so that you can help her most effectively - as it is clear you are very keen to do.

Having bought the Railcard can be used in a response to illustrate she has taken steps to start 'doing the right thing', so that's good.

 

[dspence159]

Sound advice, thanks. Yes, our aim is to plead mitigating circumstances to avoid a hearing etc

Sorry, this was the only letter we have received.

 

[WesternLancer]

Sound advice, thanks. Yes, our aim is to plead mitigating circumstances to avoid a hearing etc

Sorry, this was the only letter we have received.

OK - prob best you keep an eye on the thread for eg 24 hours to see what the range of advice is on terms of your next steps

You could maybe also make a start on drafting up the letter along the lines usually suggested here.

Also - did this letter come from Chiltern themselves, or from TIL on Chiltern's behalf?

 

[dspence159]

It came from Chiltern

 

[Titfield]

Yes I too am sorry to hear of this distressing matter involving your daughter.

I think a very well crafted letter back to Chiltern Railways with supporting evidence may be the best course of action in the first instance.

I would like to think that the person receiving the letter at Chiltern Railways would realise that interviewing someone in these circumstances would not be appropriate and may indeed cause considerable distress. For that reason I tend to think that you should write the letter on her behalf with her written authority included within the supporting documentation you send. You should explain why you are writing on her behalf and why you think it is in everyone's best interests that this matter is settled by correspondence.

 

[dspence159]

I’m putting something together now. Thanks for your kind words. She’s currently in a meltdown but we’ve seen worse. Will publish it shortly as I want to get something off.

 

[WesternLancer]

It came from Chiltern

Fingers crossed it might be more straightforward to deal with Chiltern directly than via TIL as an intermediary.

 

[Haywain]

Yes, our aim is to plead mitigating circumstances to avoid a hearing etc

If there is a record of travelling without valid tickets, then the mitigating circumstances will not count for much in my opinion. Only your daughter, and perhaps you, know what her ticket purchasing history will show, but if it does show persistent avoidance of fares the Chiltern will want their money, and will have little regard for why it hasn't previously been paid correctly. The ticket purchasing history will have to be covered if you wish to avoid court action.

 

[dspence159]

Fast moving..
We now have a spreadsheet of her journeys in the past.
She has to fess up and then we should be able to settle.

 

[Titfield]

Fast moving..
We now have a spreadsheet of her journeys in the past.
She has to fess up and then we should be able to settle.

This sounds encouraging in that the matter can be settled without recourse to law. Fingers crossed.

 

[WesternLancer]

Fast moving..
We now have a spreadsheet of her journeys in the past.
She has to fess up and then we should be able to settle.

sounding promising - is this spreadsheet from Chiltern or from her own records? If from Chiltern of course worth just double checking it looks accurate to her I suppose, but I recognise your overall objective is to settle given the wider circs, so unless it is badly wrong it may be that you will not want to debate it with them.

Obviously ask any questions that people here might have views / insights into.

 

[dspence159]

This is what I have sent the fraud dept at Chiltern.

 

[AlterEgo]

That is a very well written letter and covers all the bases. Do let us know how it goes; I am sure it is difficult to be her parent and you are clearly doing a good job at it.

Best of luck.

 

[dspence159]

Thanks.
Have done their spreadsheet so will report back.

 

[WesternLancer]

Good luck with all this. And good luck ref exams etc.

 

[Hadders]

I am sorry to hear of your daughters situation.

I suspect Chiltern will settle this, as long as you co-operate with them. My only comment on the letter is whether it should come from your daughter, I'm assuming it was written to her. Perhaps you could also send a covering note to back-up the points made.

Interested in other forum members thoughts on this.

 

[AlbertBeale]

Am I right in thinking that all the occasions of incorrect ticketing that Chiltern have found are instances of wrongly discounted tickets (ie a child ticket), and not instances where it's thought she travelled without any ticket, or with a ticket for only part of the journey? If they are [only wrongly discounted], then having now got a railcard to allow legitimate discounts covers an important part of what you need to do (ie persuade Chiltern that it won't keep happening, so they're more willing to not go down the prosecution route). However, if the problems with earlier journeys are of a different sort, then you need to ensure that your/her response to Chiltern gives them a good reason to believe that this won't be repeated. Obviously, if it has happened many times, then it's harder to persuade them that the situation will not arise again. From their point of view, here's someone who - despite medical problems - is clever enough to get to a prestigious university, and who therefore ought to be able to act rationally when it comes to not breaking the law if they know it might badly affect their life plans. I'm not giving my take on the situation, but just trying to be clear about how someone at Chiltern might approach this.

A further concern is that if Chiltern accept that your daughter's medical condition is such as to explain the unpaid (or underpaid) journeys that have happened (hence giving a good reason not to prosecute), they might then say that it's a medical condition which, ipso facto, means she ought not to travel unaccompanied. Perhaps an answer to this is that if her journeys are predicable, you can simply buy the proper tickets yourself at a station in advance, and she can carry a correct physical ticket with her, so she isn't involved in any purchasing process at the time of travel.

 

[Brissle Girl]

If there is a record of travelling without valid tickets, then the mitigating circumstances will not count for much in my opinion. Only your daughter, and perhaps you, know what her ticket purchasing history will show, but if it does show persistent avoidance of fares the Chiltern will want their money, and will have little regard for why it hasn't previously been paid correctly. The ticket purchasing history will have to be covered if you wish to avoid court action.

This is definitely a difficult one, and unfortunately I am inclined to agree with this assessment. The investigator may look at the repeated instances of fraudulent travel, conclude that it was premeditated, and that someone studying for a demanding Law degree at Oxford should be able to understand that what she was doing is wrong.

I suspect that in the course of their work investigators hear every excuse under the sun, (we see anxiety quoted very frequently here), and so may be rather cynical when reading the response. So you may need to work very hard to persuade them that your daughter’s condition is a valid explanation for her actions.

 

[dspence159]

I’ll let you know. The tone of the response sounded reasonably positive, she’s done a full and frank disclosure, and we sent this yesterday.

They said:

“If you engage in this process, it may be possible for her to settle this matter via an out of court disposal, without having to attend an interview.

We are authorised to deal with her case by way of an administrative disposal, but a prerequisite of dealing with this matter in this manner is that she takes responsibility for all the offences committed, honesty is paramount if we are to offer this option.”

It’s not to excuse her actions in any way but suffice to say she is, despite having the cognitive function to gain a place at Oxford, it takes all her effort to just exist. Her brain is starved and it does massively impact her decision-making. This is in a different league- 6 years of doctors, psychotherapy, treatment, etc etc. It’s beyond mere anxiety but something that has consumed her completely.

I’ll let you know the outcome. Thanks for all the contributions- they’ve been really helpful.

 

[Titfield]

I am encouraged by this response from Chiltern Railways. Effectively a way of avoiding legal action has been presented and now it is up to the OP to take this opportunity by complying with the conditions they have set. In a nutshell the ball is in your court (pun not intended).

Good luck.

 

[WesternLancer]

This is definitely a difficult one, and unfortunately I am inclined to agree with this assessment. The investigator may look at the repeated instances of fraudulent travel, conclude that it was premeditated, and that someone studying for a demanding Law degree at Oxford should be able to understand that what she was doing is wrong.

I suspect that in the course of their work investigators hear every excuse under the sun, (we see anxiety quoted very frequently here), and so may be rather cynical when reading the response. So you may need to work very hard to persuade them that your daughter’s condition is a valid explanation for her actions.

I got the impression that Chiltern had already accepted that a family member (ie father) was acting/writing on behalf of the person caught with child ticket and that dialogue had already started, so fingers crossed.

We do of course come across many people who cite anxiety as one of their problems, but aside from cases involving Disabled Persons Railcards it seems to me fairly rare for a case on the forum to involve the complex medical / personal issues the OP has outlined, which given their seriousness can I would think be verified by medical professionals who have treated the person concerned if needs be.

Looking at Chiltern's response it looks like they want to be convinced of 100% honesty - so I would think it is hopefully a case that their records of child rate ticket purchases match or are accepted by the OPs records/estimates and it's merely got to the case of them requesting the sum of money they want and it being affordable to the OP. Hopefully in any case.

 

[dspence159]

Hi all, I thought you might appreciate an update. I'm amazed with how speedily it has been dealt with. We were indeed offered an administrative disposal to settle the case, which has been paid. Such a relief all round. Chiltern's admin was unbelievably speedy- even replies well into the evening! Thank you so much for the advice and contribution, including the @Hadders template! This forum is amazing. All best wishes.

 

[Brissle Girl]

That’s great news, and I wish your daughter well with her studies and health in future. Thanks for letting us know.

 

[WesternLancer]

Hi all, I thought you might appreciate an update. I'm amazed with how speedily it has been dealt with. We were indeed offered an administrative disposal to settle the case, which has been paid. Such a relief all round. Chiltern's admin was unbelievably speedy- even replies well into the evening! Thank you so much for the advice and contribution, including the @Hadders template! This forum is amazing. All best wishes.

Good news - it must be a big weight off your daughter's mind and no doubt other family too.

Going forwards and assuming she will now use a relevant railcard (16-25 etc) just make sure you check the basic key T&Cs ref any minimum fares that apply or hours of use etc so as not to inadvertently breach those when using the card to discount tickets.

 

[madjack]

I assume that the case manager from Chiltern will have been monitoring the thread.