Circular trip using advances

[Morris Dancer]

Like my last post I'm hoping this is in the right section.
Here goes. A couple of weeks ago I did a round trip using a number of separate advance tickets. I was travelling with one other adult and two children using a family railcard. For every journey, more than the minimum connection time was used. I have read the section on advance tickets but it didn't quite answer my questions.
Journey 1 Bushey - Birmingham New Street
Journey 2 Birmingham New Street - Derby
Journey 3 Derby - Sheffield
Journey 4 Sheffield - Manchester Piccadilly
Journey 5 Manchester Piccadilly - Crewe
Journey 6 Crewe - Birmingham New Street
Journey 7 Birmingham Moor Street - London Marylebone,
and home using Oyster.
Our train left New Street 27 minutes late and arrived into Derby 31 minutes overdue and just in time to see our service to Sheffield pulling out.
My questions are...1. Travelling on advances, do we have to travel on the correct TOC for every single leg of our journey regardless of the delay it would cause on the other legs? 2. Would minimum connection times still apply even if we could have got an earlier train, such as the 4 minutes from a train arriving into Crewe and a New Street service departing. 3. Other than the delay from New Street to Derby would we have been entitled to any refunds on the other legs?
I would like to add that the staff that I talked to at Derby about our getting to Sheffield were very understanding and advised me to ask the guard on the Penzance - Aberdeen service. To said guard, you're a top man! Finally to the station supervisor at Sheffield who kindly endorsed our tickets to travel on a different TOC and enabled us to get back on track, thank you.
I hope this makes sense and is not too wordy.

Thanks

 

[gray1404]

1. yes, but can ask staff for permission to do otherwise
2. no
3. it depends, you could claim compensation based on your entire journey but if you managed to get your journey back on track then you may not be entitled to any compensation. Therefore, you may be better just claiming for part of your journey (as you are using a combination of tickets) up to interchange before you manged to get your journey back on track.

 

[Morris Dancer]

Thanks for your reply.

1. Which is what we did and I thank all concerned again.
2. Ok.
3. So far I've only claimed for the New Street - Derby leg, but are you saying that I could potentially claim on the two services that got me to Manchester and back on track? I certainly wouldn't be claiming on the other services as I was no longer delayed.

 

[yorkie]

Like my last post I'm hoping this is in the right section.
Here goes. A couple of weeks ago I did a round trip using a number of separate advance tickets. I was travelling with one other adult and two children using a family railcard. For every journey, more than the minimum connection time was used. I have read the section on advance tickets but it didn't quite answer my questions.
Journey 1 Bushey - Birmingham New Street
Journey 2 Birmingham New Street - Derby
Journey 3 Derby - Sheffield
Journey 4 Sheffield - Manchester Piccadilly
Journey 5 Manchester Piccadilly - Crewe
Journey 6 Crewe - Birmingham New Street
Journey 7 Birmingham Moor Street - London Marylebone,
and home using Oyster.
Our train left New Street 27 minutes late and arrived into Derby 31 minutes overdue and just in time to see our service to Sheffield pulling out.
My questions are...1. Travelling on advances, do we have to travel on the correct TOC for every single leg of our journey regardless of the delay it would cause on the other legs?

Without knowing the full details of the itineraries provided, the actual delays on the day, alternative trains operating, and importantly the routeing printed on the ticket, it's not possible to answer conclusively.

2. Would minimum connection times still apply even if we could have got an earlier train, such as the 4 minutes from a train arriving into Crewe and a New Street service departing.

I don't quite get what you mean. The minimum interchange time must be adhered to but you can take an earlier train if it is "appropriate", where applicable.

3. Other than the delay from New Street to Derby would we have been entitled to any refunds on the other legs?

Can you clarify what you mean by entitled to refunds? Are you talking about a refund because you choose not to travel (or abandon your journey) due to a delay, or are you talking about delay compensation due to a delay?

I would like to add that the staff that I talked to at Derby about our getting to Sheffield were very understanding and advised me to ask the guard on the Penzance - Aberdeen service. To said guard, you're a top man! Finally to the station supervisor at Sheffield who kindly endorsed our tickets to travel on a different TOC and enabled us to get back on track, thank you.

I agree that seeking staff advice is a good idea, and if station staff won't endorse the ticket, approaching on-board staff (where applicable) is a good idea.

I suggest a lengthy layover is planned for at least one place when on a 'circular' journey, because at some point you may have to 'define' what your 'journey' is, and it might not be to your advantage to state your journey is Bushey to London.

In your case I would have planned a break at Sheffield (perhaps visiting the Sheffield Tap) or Manchester Piccadilly, which would allow you to have two clearly defined journeys. This may be to your advantage if severe delays mean you may struggle to get back on track, and it may also be to your advantage to claim Delay Repay.

Perhaps posting future ideas to Trip Planning & Reports for others to advise on the viability of the itinerary before booking may help to reduce the potential for problems next time.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

3. So far I've only claimed for the New Street - Derby leg, but are you saying that I could potentially claim on the two services that got me to Manchester and back on track? I certainly wouldn't be claiming on the other services as I was no longer delayed.

If you can provide details of your booked itinerary vs your actual times, we may be able to answer this.

 

[bb21]

I suggest a lengthy layover is planned for at least one place when on a 'circular' journey, because at some point you may have to 'define' what your 'journey' is, and it might not be to your advantage to state your journey is Bushey to London.

In your case I would have planned a break at Sheffield (perhaps visiting the Sheffield Tap) or Manchester Piccadilly, which would allow you to have two clearly defined journeys. This may be to your advantage if severe delays mean you may struggle to get back on track, and it may also be to your advantage to claim Delay Repay.

Most sensible idea.

I would not like to get into a discussion as to whether Bushey to London via Manchester is actually one "journey".

If anyone is so delayed on a circular trip like this one, and would like to seek compensation, I advise writing to the TOC, explaining what you were up to, and any impact service disruption had on you, eg. disrupted plans for sightseeing at xxx on a day trip, etc. Be honest, and most case handlers will be sympathetic.

Claiming for an absurd journey which no one in their right mind going from the origin to the destination would be making without an explanation will more than likely see the claim rejected.

 

[Morris Dancer]

Here are the details
My itinerary was:
Bushey 10:24 - Birmingham NS 11:45 (Virgin & connections)
Birmingham NS 12:19 - Derby 13:00 (XC)
Derby 13:25 - Sheffield 14:02 (East Mid Trains)
Sheffield 14:11 - Manchester Piccadilly 15:01 (Transpennine)
Manchester P 15:46 - Crewe 16:45 (Northern)
Crewe 17:21 - Birmingham NS 18:18 (London Midland)
Birmingham Moor Street 19:20 - London Marylebone 21:16 (Chiltern)

All these trains were taken except for:
Derby 13:44 - Sheffield 14:18 and (XC)
Sheffield 14:40 - Manchester P 15:36 (East Mid Trains)

For the question about refunds, I meant delay repay schemes.

Regarding the part about minimum connections, HAD we still been delayed when we left Manchester we could have made up time after arrival at Crewe as there would have been an onward London Midland train. However there was only 4 minutes between the two. This would have been perfectly doable with hindsight as it was only a cross platform change, but would we have been allowed under the ticket conditions to take it?
Hope this helps.

 

[yorkie]

Here are the details
My itinerary was:
Bushey 10:24 - Birmingham NS 11:45 (Virgin & connections)
Birmingham NS 12:19 - Derby 13:00 (XC)
Derby 13:25 - Sheffield 14:02 (East Mid Trains)
Sheffield 14:11 - Manchester Piccadilly 15:01 (Transpennine)
Manchester P 15:46 - Crewe 16:45 (Northern)
Crewe 17:21 - Birmingham NS 18:18 (London Midland)
Birmingham Moor Street 19:20 - London Marylebone 21:16 (Chiltern)

All these trains were taken except for:
Derby 13:44 - Sheffield 14:18 and (XC)

Delay Repay is not applicable for a journey from Bushey to Sheffield as you arrived into Sheffield 16 mins late.

Sheffield 14:40 - Manchester P 15:36 (East Mid Trains)

Delay Repay is applicable for a journey from Bushey to Manchester, as you arrived into Manchester Piccadilly 35 mins late.

However the route may be considered rather convoluted. As XC caused the delay, and the delay was known before you boarded the train at Birmingham, it could be argued that you should have declared this at the time as it would have been reasonable to have given XC an opportunity to minimise their liability for Delay Repay compensation by potentially authorising you on a through train to Manchester, so that you'd arrive on time (very early, in fact!).

Regarding the part about minimum connections, HAD we still been delayed when we left Manchester we could have made up time after arrival at Crewe as there would have been an onward London Midland train. However there was only 4 minutes between the two. This would have been perfectly doable with hindsight as it was only a cross platform change, but would we have been allowed under the ticket conditions to take it?
Hope this helps.

If you are asking if 4 minutes is enough time in practice, it may well be (especially if you are first off the train, and at the optimum doors)

If the original itinerary adhered to minimum interchange times then you are of course allowed to take later trains to complete your journey. The problem is that if you are claiming that your journey is Bushey to Euston, then there is arguably nothing to stop them minimising their exposure to Delay Repay liability by putting you on a more direct service to your destination. Therefore, see my advice earlier regarding a layover and splitting it into two more clearly defined 'journeys'.