Clarity of restrictions on Break of Journey

[soil]

Mod Note: This thread has been split out of another thread here.

I would have suggested a Super Off-Peak Return from Rugby to Zone U123* LONDN at £18.05 each route †LDN MIDLAND ONLY with Groupsave 3, but break of journey isn't permitted on the outbound leg of the ticket so it is technically not valid to board at Northampton.

According to the NRCoC, where starting short is not permitted on a ticket so it will be made clear in the TOC's publicity/literature.

As far as I know London Midland do not say this anywhere, so I would say it technically is valid.

 

[maniacmartin]

According to the NRCoC, where starting short is not permitted on a ticket so it will be made clear in the TOC's publicity/literature.

As far as I know London Midland do not say this anywhere, so I would say it technically is valid.

It is made clear by the "VALIDITY" field on the ticket having SEE RESTRICTIONS printed under it I believe.

 

[bb21]

According to the NRCoC, where starting short is not permitted on a ticket so it will be made clear in the TOC's publicity/literature.

As far as I know London Midland do not say this anywhere, so I would say it technically is valid.

It is perfectly clear in the restriction texts so this line of arguments does not work.

 

[soil]

It is perfectly clear in the restriction texts so this line of arguments does not work.

Could you quote the restriction text where it is made clear that starting short is not permitted?

 

[maniacmartin]

Could you quote the restriction text where it is made clear that starting short is not permitted?

If you try to buy this ticket from LM's website, the Order Summary Page has a terms and conditions link to OPR restrictions. This states:

A break of journey is allowed on the outward portion unless otherwise indicated by a restriction shown against the ticket's Restriction Code and is allowed on the return portion of your ticket.

Finding the restriction code and its text from an official source is much harder (the easiest way being to ask a member of staff to check in their TIS), and whilst the restrictions definitely aren't advertised as readily as they should, I agree with bb21 that this line of argument will probably prove fruitless.

 

[ainsworth74]

Could you quote the restriction text where it is made clear that starting short is not permitted?

Restriction Code LK:

MONDAYS to FRIDAYS:

Not valid for travel on London
Midland services timed to
ARRIVE London Terminals before
1300.

Not valid for travel on
northbound London Midland
services timed to DEPART
London Terminals or any other
station, before 1030.

Not valid for travel on London
Midland services timed to
DEPART any station between
1630 and 1930 in either
direction (except for the 1902
Crewe to Northampton service),
unless a connecting_service is
being used to_complete a
journey begun at a_valid time.

Break of journey is not
permitted on the outward
portion except to change
trains at an intermediate
station or to access station
facilities. Normal break of
journey rules apply to the
return portion.

Not valid at any time on
Virgin Trains services.

SATURDAYS, SUNDAYS and BANK
HOLIDAYS:
By any London Midland train.

Break of journey is not
permitted on the outward
portion except to change
trains at an intermediate
station or to access station
facilities. Normal break of
journey rules apply to the
return portion.

Condition 16 of the NRCoC:

16. Starting, breaking or ending a journey at intermediate stations

You may start, or break and resume, a journey (in either direction in the case of a return ticket) at any intermediate station, as long as the ticket you hold is valid for the trains you want to use. You may also end your journey (in either direction in the case of a return ticket) before the destination shown on the ticket. However, these rights may not apply to some types of tickets for which a break of journey is prohibited, in which case the Ticket Seller must make this clear when you buy your ticket.

 

[soil]

I am aware that 'break of journey' is restricted.

However if your journey is from Northampton to London and you travel on a non-stop train, albeit on a Rugby to London ticket, you have not by any credible stretch of the English language 'broken' your journey.

The CoC are clear:

"16. Starting, breaking or ending a journey at intermediate stations"
"You may start, or break and resume, a journey [...] at any intermediate station"

So as a starting principle you may start your journey at any intermediate station.

The exception to this is then given:

"However, these rights may not apply to some types of tickets for which a break of journey is prohibited, in which case the Ticket Seller must make this clear when you buy your ticket."

The text does not read

""However, these rights do not apply to tickets for which a break of journey is prohibited. The Ticket Seller must make clear if break of journey is prohibited when you buy your ticket."

or even

""However, these rights may not apply to some types of tickets, for which a break of journey is prohibited, in which case the Ticket Seller must make this clear when you buy your ticket."

It is clearly applicable to some tickets for which a break of journey is prohibited, but necessarily not all of them.

I would also add that with particular regard to London Midland, I just searched for Rugby - London tickets on the 15th January (arbitrary) date, and it offers:

"Advance Single
Origin:Rugby, 12:53
Destination:London Euston, 13:49
Date:Tue 15 Jan 2013 Changes:0 Duration:0:56hrs
Valid only on your chosen service. Not refundable. Changeable prior to date of travel for a fee."

The i button indicates:

"Break of journey:
You may not start, break and resume, or end your journey at any intermediate station except to change to/from connecting trains as shown on the ticket(s) or other valid travel itinerary"

which is clear.

But also

"Super Off-Peak Single
Origin:Rugby, 12:53
Destination:London Euston, 13:49
Date:Tue 15 Jan 2013 Changes:0 Duration:0:56hrs
Valid on off peak services, on date printed on the ticket."

Here the i button says

"Break of journey:
A break of journey is allowed unless otherwise indicated by a restriction shown against the ticket's Restriction Code."

As far as I can tell London Midland do not comply with the Conditions

"However, these rights may not apply to some types of tickets for which a break of journey is prohibited, in which case the Ticket Seller must make this clear when you buy your ticket."

It quite obviously is not 'clear', by any reasonable definition of clear whatsoever.

How many TOCs actually comply with this requirement in respect of off-peak tickets with BoJ restrictions (quite aside from the issue of whether a BoJ restriction means you can't start/finish short).

As a final note, if you can find the restriction text for the ticket (not sure how, from the LM website), unlike the text for Advance tickets, it does not say that starting and finishing short is prohibited. Again given the implication from the CoC that some tickets on which BoJ is restricted permit starting/finishing short, the omission of the text "You may not start, break and resume, or end your journey at any intermediate station except to change to/from connecting trains as shown on the ticket(s) or other valid travel itinerary", appears deliberate and therefore indicative that the general right to start/finish short is not counteracted by a prohibition of breaking journey.

 

[tony_mac]

Some of us have had this discussion before, starting several years ago.....

The NRCoc does specify starting late, breaking, or ending early as three separate things, although possibly lumped together.

The restrictions for advance tickets also specifically list these as three separate restrictions.
They originally didn't, this has been clarified in the last few years.

For off-peak tickets, this is still usually just listed as 'no break of journey'.
The advance conditions also used to refer to a 'break of journey' as 'break and resume' your journey - again, showing that it only refers to one of the three restrictions.

While I think we know what the intent is, I don't believe that it is made at all clear, as it should be.
That's just my opinion, I recall that glynn80 disagreed with it quite strongly!

Oh, and last time I checked, these 'restrictions' do not appear at all on TVMs - and I have never been advised of them when buying from a ticket office either.
(the Ticket Seller must make this clear when you buy your ticket.)

 

[soil]

I think the most reasonable conclusion is that, with the exception of Advance tickets, restrictions on Break of Journey are not made clear by the Ticket Seller, as required, and therefore whether BoJ permits starting/finishing short is irrelevant since any putative restriction is not effectively communicated and therefore the general presumption that you can break journey on any ticket remains for all tickets except Advances (where this is invariably made clear).

I checked ATW's website, as they also sell some tickets with BoJ restrictions, and they say

"Break of journey is permitted on the return direction of Off-Peak tickets, and is generally permitted on the outward direction unless prohibited for the journey that you are making. If you intend to break your outward journey, please contact us to check if it is permitted. You can always break your journey where necessary to change train."

While this is slightly better, it does not comply with the requirement that the Ticket Seller makes this clear when selling the ticket. It also makes no mention of starting/finishing short.