Class 159 whining noise

[159jim]

Hi

Since July/August, I've noticed that all of the 159's have started making a whining noise when accelerating and have only started making this noise since July'ish. I thought it would be because of the heat but it still happens now. Could anyone possibly shed some light why this happens?

The whining noise can be heard here at 0:52 INTERNALLY: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jLDc-oZOF4k

And here at 0:32 EXTERNALLY: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UW8BZl83rCA

Thanks,
Jim.

 

[fgwrich]

I've noticed this too living in Basingstoke - at first I didn't mind it, but as I can now hear it fairly often from my house (1 mile away) I do find it slightly annoying. Not sure what can be causing it too, as it seems to only be issue related to the 159s and nothing else, I've certainly not heard it on any 158s either.

For anyone not noticing it in the video, its the fairly 'choral' noise as the 159s are accelerating away.

 

[34002salisbury]

I live 200m from the line just east of Quidhampton. I've noticed this change too, although this was back around Easter time. I don't complain as I'm used to it, the only "annoying" train is the occasional stone at 11pm!

 

[Dynamonic]

I noticed the noise on a Northern 158 this past week.

I quite like the noise, lol.

EDIT

Sorry, wrong noise. I thought you were on about the acceleration whine. Silly me.

It's not the rails causing the noise is it?

 

[fgwrich]

I noticed the noise on a Northern 158 this past week.

I quite like the noise, lol.

EDIT

Sorry, wrong noise. I thought you were on about the acceleration whine. Silly me.

It's not the rails causing the noise is it?

Nope, seems to be coming from the Exhaust set up on the SWT units.

 

[asylumxl]

It may be possible that the whining sound you are hearing is an individual or group of rail enthusiasts whining about the underfloor diesel engines. Hence the sound only manifests itself upon acceleration.

A little duct tape fixes it right up.

 

[samuelmorris]

I've also noticed this, having made a few journeys on 159s (and a 158) in the last few weeks on SWT. Only some units do it, and when they do it, they don't always do it all of the time. Bit mystifying tbh. I don't think I heard it on the 158, but I can't be certain. I would also have noted whether I'd heard it on /1 vs. /0 units but travelling on the classes is new to me (last time I'd travelled on a 158 until recently was a good 15 years ago!) so I assumed it was something they all suffered from to a varying degree. The acceleration whine, whilst also unusual compared to other DMUs, is perfectly acceptable, and doesn't bother me at all. This is a little odd though, as it's a constant pitch varying volume with no direct relationship to speed/engine power, other than that it doesn't happen at idle.

 

[Cherry_Picker]

Am I correct in thinking that Class 159s run through the leafy suburbs of south west London and out into Hampshire and beyond? If so, the whining noise is probably all the Manchester United fans on board complaining about David Moyes.

 

[Muzer]

Heh

(For anyone who genuinely doesn't know, they mainly work West of England services (Waterloo to Salisbury/Gillingham/Yeovil/Exeter/a few divert to Bristol), but there are a few peak-time routes like Basingstoke/Winchester to Southampton/Portsmouth stoppers.)

 

[HSTEd]

There was talk of fitting the new mechanical transmissions from the Class 172 to the 159s to improve fuel consumption compared to the older BR-era design.
This might be the effect of such fitting, but I don't know if the idea ever proceeded to trial.

 

[Temple Meads]

I've had a couple of 159's lately where the noise has been pretty disturbing from the inside, definitely can't remember it in the past either...

 

[fgwrich]

There was talk of fitting the new mechanical transmissions from the Class 172 to the 159s to improve fuel consumption compared to the older BR-era design.
This might be the effect of such fitting, but I don't know if the idea ever proceeded to trial.

This isn't a result of the changing of the gearboxes - the only South West Trains DMU to be fitted with the ZF Eco Drive unit at the moment is 158885.

 

[Charlie2555]

Travelling from Gillingham to London a month ago, I really did notice this noise! I've got loads of 159s in the last 11 years, but like you said, this noise seems to be a recent thing...

 

[TEW]

This isn't a result of the changing of the gearboxes - the only South West Trains DMU to be fitted with the ZF Eco Drive unit at the moment is 158885.

I was wondering what was happening with that, as it had all gone pretty quiet. Is it actually in use yet?

 

[Pumbaa]

Yes. Including a bundle of paperwork for the crew in case anything goes pop!

 

[samuelmorris]

This isn't a result of the changing of the gearboxes - the only South West Trains DMU to be fitted with the ZF Eco Drive unit at the moment is 158885.

Not sure if want. I found the 172 experience on LO pretty jarring tbh. The gear changing is no smoother than you'd expect for a mechanical gearbox driving such a heavy vehicle, but it's not unacceptable, the real issue is vibration. The low idle speed may be much better for efficiency, but it clearly demonstrates every loose interior panel (of which it turns out there are many) at regular intervals. They may well be better on the chiltern/LM routes when travelling at speed for longer, but imo while this is a step forward for efficiency, it's a step back for passenger comfort. I suppose in much the same way single-deck buses changed from 6-cylinder to 4-cylinder format a decade or so ago. Not difficult to get quite the headache when waiting at traffic lights or stuck in traffic for a long time.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LbIjD8ypru4
Perfect example here 10-30s. Audio quality's not great but it highlights the effect I'm talking about. The 'lift off' effect at around 1:00 and 1:15 is also a bit annoying - common for road vehicles, but it's something you forget about not having on trains.

 

[MrC]

Just a thought but it's possible the noise being heard is the result of the railhead being reprofiled by a rail grinder. This leaves a varying pattern of small grooves which causes harmonics when train wheels pass over it. It's very audible and can be heard in most types of stock.

 

[Juniper Driver]

Haven't noticed it and I drive these.I'd better ask a Salisbury driver as they get on these all the time.I knew about 158885 though and I think they have been having problems with it.

Anyone notice 158888 with 159101 up the other end,last Saturday? Three car job.158888 was on the blocks at Waterloo.Saturday PM.Thought it was weird seeing it as a three car.

 

[samuelmorris]

Just a thought but it's possible the noise being heard is the result of the railhead being reprofiled by a rail grinder. This leaves a varying pattern of small grooves which causes harmonics when train wheels pass over it. It's very audible and can be heard in most types of stock.

This noise infuriates me no end, but no it's not this, you can actually hear that and the noise being referred to here on top of each other in some cases.

I won't start a tangent but I long for the day when the technique for that changes such that it no longer more than doubles the noise level of trains when applied.

 

[RJ]

Not sure if want. I found the 172 experience on LO pretty jarring tbh. The gear changing is no smoother than you'd expect for a mechanical gearbox driving such a heavy vehicle, but it's not unacceptable, the real issue is vibration. The low idle speed may be much better for efficiency, but it clearly demonstrates every loose interior panel (of which it turns out there are many) at regular intervals. They may well be better on the chiltern/LM routes when travelling at speed for longer, but imo while this is a step forward for efficiency, it's a step back for passenger comfort. I suppose in much the same way single-deck buses changed from 6-cylinder to 4-cylinder format a decade or so ago. Not difficult to get quite the headache when waiting at traffic lights or stuck in traffic for a long time.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LbIjD8ypru4
Perfect example here 10-30s. Audio quality's not great but it highlights the effect I'm talking about. The 'lift off' effect at around 1:00 and 1:15 is also a bit annoying - common for road vehicles, but it's something you forget about not having on trains.

I quite like the Class 172s - I wonder if they're designed to always change gears at such low revs though. They always seem to vibrate a lot when changing up at low revs. Compare these two;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_jJt-6sDRnw - Class 172 acceleration up to 100mph in "kickdown" high rev mode from the torque stage in 1st untill well into 6th.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RdFCQE61mSA - Class 172 acceleration up to 80mph+ without hitting full revs on gear change.

The second one vibrates quite badly when shifting up.

 

[rm88]

350s and 323s make weird wining noises aswell, why?

 

[samuelmorris]

I presume there you're referring to the traction motor control gear - GTO on the 323s (the 'gear change' effect) and IGBT on the 350s. I don't have an answer for you about why the Desiro EMUs (350/360/444/450) oscillate (the 'flying saucer' noise as I've heard it put!) as opposed to a constant pitch on the electrostars and junipers.

RJ: That's the problem pretty much solved in the first video. I imagine the second video setting is more fuel efficient and less noisy on the outside. Still, as I say before, not exactly nice is it? With the continuous low speeds on the Gospel Oak - Barking line it was fairly obtrusive, but at least I suppose it's not a long journey.

 

[Muzer]

I presume there you're referring to the traction motor control gear - GTO on the 323s (the 'gear change' effect) and IGBT on the 350s. I don't have an answer for you about why the Desiro EMUs (350/360/444/450) oscillate (the 'flying saucer' noise as I've heard it put!) as opposed to a constant pitch on the electrostars and junipers.

RJ: That's the problem pretty much solved in the first video. I imagine the second video setting is more fuel efficient and less noisy on the outside. Still, as I say before, not exactly nice is it? With the continuous low speeds on the Gospel Oak - Barking line it was fairly obtrusive, but at least I suppose it's not a long journey.

Is it all the Desiros, or just the DC ones?

 

[3141]

Going back to the 159 noise, I live in Overton about a mile from the railway, and I'd say I started noticing this noise sometime in the Spring. I'd been thinking of writing to the depot manager at Salisbury and asking what they'd done.

The idea that it might be the railhead as result of grinding is an interesting one, that would explain why it doesn't happen all the time. But would we still be hearing it through Overton seven or eight months after they'd done the grinding? Also I think not every train makes the noise.

 

[Railengineer]

Going back to the 159 noise, I live in Overton about a mile from the railway, and I'd say I started noticing this noise sometime in the Spring. I'd been thinking of writing to the depot manager at Salisbury and asking what they'd done.

The idea that it might be the railhead as result of grinding is an interesting one, that would explain why it doesn't happen all the time. But would we still be hearing it through Overton seven or eight months after they'd done the grinding? Also I think not every train makes the noise.

The noise is coming from new radiators. It varies because this type of radiator is not fitted to all units.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Not sure if want. I found the 172 experience on LO pretty jarring tbh. The gear changing is no smoother than you'd expect for a mechanical gearbox driving such a heavy vehicle, but it's not unacceptable, the real issue is vibration. The low idle speed may be much better for efficiency, but it clearly demonstrates every loose interior panel (of which it turns out there are many) at regular intervals. They may well be better on the chiltern/LM routes when travelling at speed for longer, but imo while this is a step forward for efficiency, it's a step back for passenger comfort. I suppose in much the same way single-deck buses changed from 6-cylinder to 4-cylinder format a decade or so ago. Not difficult to get quite the headache when waiting at traffic lights or stuck in traffic for a long time.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LbIjD8ypru4
Perfect example here 10-30s. Audio quality's not great but it highlights the effect I'm talking about. The 'lift off' effect at around 1:00 and 1:15 is also a bit annoying - common for road vehicles, but it's something you forget about not having on trains.

The gearbox on 158885 is pretty smooth when changing gear. i have been on it a couple of times because it always seems to be working on the salisbury to romsey route.

 

[samuelmorris]

Is it all the Desiros, or just the DC ones?

All, but the DC units are a different pitch (and also increase in pitch slightly before the switch):

AC: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tyCYHf8QOm4
DC: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VeDqSRGVqkY (skip to 20s)

The idea that it might be the railhead as result of grinding is an interesting one, that would explain why it doesn't happen all the time. But would we still be hearing it through Overton seven or eight months after they'd done the grinding? Also I think not every train makes the noise.

On a section of track that makes the noise, anything passing over tends to produce it at the same volume - EMU, DMU, coaches behind a locos, freight wagons, NR maintenance vehicles, you name it. I'm not sure 7/8 months is long enough. I'm sure it's been more than that since Upminster - Barking on c2c was done and it's still far louder than the all of the noise the train itself generates.

 

[Muzer]

All, but the DC units are a different pitch (and also increase in pitch slightly before the switch):

AC: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tyCYHf8QOm4
DC: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VeDqSRGVqkY (skip to 20s)


On a section of track that makes the noise, anything passing over tends to produce it at the same volume - EMU, DMU, coaches behind a locos, freight wagons, NR maintenance vehicles, you name it. I'm not sure 7/8 months is long enough. I'm sure it's been more than that since Upminster - Barking on c2c was done and it's still far louder than the all of the noise the train itself generates.

Scuppers the theory I'd heard then. I think a friend was postulating that it might be some PWM type thing to stop it drawing too much current from the third rail when accelerating and overloading the power...

 

[notadriver]

Class 444s as shown on the second YouTube video are current restricted and develop a fraction of their true potential.

 

[Muzer]

Below where?

 

[samuelmorris]

I heard a not dissimilar theory that it was a pulsating effect used to reduce the heat output of the control system and/or the traction motors, but last time I traveled on an SWT Desiro (this week, in pretty cold temperatures) I could hear powerful fans being used underneath the units only when they're in motion, such as used on IGBT tube stock. I don't remember hearing this before if I'm honest, but it being here now suggests that theory is false as well.