Class 175 future speculation

[HamworthyGoods]

The reason I refer to it as intercity is due to the amount of time people spend on board. I have found it surprising how many people do actually make long distance trips on it like Plymouth to Cardiff. As you say, this is in a big part down to XC hopeless inadequacy, but direct services and not having to have to change does seem to play a part as well. My guess is on the Cardoff to Pompey route there are more journeys of just a few stops.

The mix of longer distance / end to end journeys / short hops is very similar on the Cardiff to Portsmouth and Cardiff to Penzance routes.

 

[REVUpminster]

This makes lot of sense, I guess it means the 166 and 165s can be concentrated on the Bristol suburban and services to Weymouth and Worcester etc. perhaps returning Portsmouth-Cardiff to 158s rather than the mix of 158 and 16x that can't couple in multiple

Guessing
20 (2car) 150s for Devon and Cornwall
5x3car, 13x2car (41 vehicles) 158s of which Portsmouth -Cardiff uses set sets of 4 or 5 cars, so most of them

The 175s could also release a number of 5car IETs on Cardiff-Penzance which hopefully mean less short trains to London.

The mix of 2car and 3car units in the west does cause some formation headaches making up longer trains, because many platforms are limited to 5car formations, whereas 6car formations often appear start and end of day to/from Bristol area. Although some platforms are now 145-150m suitable for 6car formations.

I think only 19 150s are available. If 175s took over the Okehampton and Barnstaple. You would need 14 units of 150 for Paignton-Exmouth peak. Only leaves 5 for Cornwall and Gunnislake (2 units needed at St Ives in summer) unless they can get more 150s. Newquay could be a big success and need 4 car trains.
Barnstaple already needs more peak capacity.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I worked 158’s every day as a conductor, and travelled in them regularly as a passenger. Never noticed exhaust fumes in the saloon ?

Only time I've experienced that is in long tunnels in the vestibules, which can happen on any unit where the vestibules aren't fully sealed. On a 159 now and I can definitely not smell fumes!

 

[Energy]

There aren’t quite enough 158 vehicles to cover all the Portsmouth workings, you can cover more if the 3 cars were at Bristol but not them all.

1 x 3 car and 2 x 2 cars are maintenance units so that leaves 34 vehicles which isn’t enough to cover all 8 diagrams unless you split up the remaining 3 car sets which isn’t without its challenges.

Portsmouth route is likely to remain a mixed operation whatever fleet cascade happens or not.

Most of GWR's 3-car 158s are 'hybrid' units, you can reform them back into 1x3 car and 19x2 car units. That should be enough for 4 cars across all Cardiff-Portsmouth diagrams.

 

[TheWalrus]

I think only 19 150s are available. If 175s took over the Okehampton and Barnstaple. You would need 14 units of 150 for Paignton-Exmouth peak. Only leaves 5 for Cornwall and Gunnislake (2 units needed at St Ives in summer) unless they can get more 150s. Newquay could be a big success and need 4 car trains.
Barnstaple already needs more peak capacity.

150s could come from TfW. Turbos could do the Paignton-Exmouth as Turbos are more suited to short commuter routes than long distance.

 

[Lurcheroo]

150s could come from TfW. Turbos could do the Paignton-Exmouth as Turbos are more suited to short commuter routes than long distance.

AT TFW the Cambrian lines are the 158’s last stronghold as they’re the only units than can work it. The ERTMS fitted 197’s were not due to take over until December 2025. There has been some commotion in the last week and a bit about getting the 197’s on the Cambrian this year. I’m not exactly sure why but if so, it could potentially release 158’s from TFW that GWR could have.
Maybe Angel trains (the owners of TFW’s 158’s) have told TFW they won’t extend the lease again after the end of this year in the hope for them to get a longer term home at GWR ?

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Most of GWR's 3-car 158s are 'hybrid' units, you can reform them back into 1x3 car and 19x2 car units. That should be enough for 4 cars across all Cardiff-Portsmouth diagrams.

Yes you will notice my original post said unless you split up the 3 car units and that would leave you too short on capacity on some trains on the Portsmouth route.

Having a single 3 car unit is also not pragmatic as when it needs maintenance there will be a short-form.

A train which is almost without fail a 5 car formation (certainly was the case every day last week), is 1F07, 07.27 from Cardiff.

Don’t forget at a 4 car 158 only has around 40 more seats than a 3 car 166.

Fratton also need to maintain traction knowledge on 16X as these are the trains which would cover in case of poor availability of 158s.

For this reason its has been acknowledged that the Portsmouth route will always be a mix of 158s and 16Xs but hopefully an ability to have a greater balance of 158 formations.

 

[Energy]

Yes you will notice my original post said unless you split up the 3 car units and that would leave you too short on capacity on some trains on the Portsmouth route.

Sorry, missed it.

Having a single 3 car unit is also not pragmatic as when it needs maintenance there will be a short-form.

[...]

Don’t forget at a 4 car 158 only has around 40 more seats than a 3 car 166.

I'd suggest swapping the 3 car unit for a 2 car with Northern but given the small increase in seats compared to a 166 I'd agree that more than 4 car 158s would be needed at peak times.

 

[irish_rail]

Would also point out that any cascade of Turbos or 158s to the Cardiff to Penzance (with 175s going on the Pompey route) would result in slower trains on Cardiff to Penzance. A 90mph 158 with relatively slow acceleration would be replacing a 100mph capable 80x with very quick initial acceleration. The 175s definitely fit better (as 100mph units) with the Penzance route, which is 100mph minimum from Bristol to the other side of Exeter. How much 100 mph running is there on the Pompey run? (Genuine question as I don't know the answer).

 

[craigybagel]

Would also point out that any cascade of Turbos or 158s to the Cardiff to Penzance (with 175s going on the Pompey route) would result in slower trains on Cardiff to Penzance. A 90mph 158 with relatively slow acceleration would be replacing a 100mph capable 80x with very quick initial acceleration. The 175s definitely fit better (as 100mph units) with the Penzance route, which is 100mph minimum from Bristol to the other side of Exeter.

They also get to 90 a lot quicker than a 158

How much 100 mph running is there on the Pompey run? (Genuine question as I don't know the answer).

I think there's some between Bristol and Bath but that's it. Cardiff - Newport is 95. Otherwise I don't think there's anywhere else that's higher than 90.

 

[RPI]

From what I gather, the 175's are quite versatile in their route availability (I'm sure I'll be corrected if not), they'd probably be a good fit for Barnstaple, Okehampton, Gunnislake and Newquay if that's the case. Only three depots to train staff then, possibly Looe though I don't think they'd fit into the platform at Looe being just over 23m vehicles.

They'd be a pain in the backside for the Exmouth-Paignton with their end doors, 150/16x being the ideal there.

 

[The exile]

Only time I've experienced that is in long tunnels in the vestibules, which can happen on any unit where the vestibules aren't fully sealed. On a 159 now and I can definitely not smell fumes!

There is a distinct odour at times - albeit usually very faint (nothing like as strong as the Voyager “aroma” or the old HST brake pong). It might nothing more than “stale air”, but it’s coming intermittently from somewhere. Agree - I don’t recall noticing it much in the days when my commute was on one of the SWR Bristol extensions, so may be a “feature” of the air con itself.

From what I gather, the 175's are quite versatile in their route availability (I'm sure I'll be corrected if not), they'd probably be a good fit for Barnstaple, Okehampton, Gunnislake and Newquay if that's the case. Only three depots to train staff then, possibly Looe though I don't think they'd fit into the platform at Looe being just over 23m vehicles.

They'd be a pain in the backside for the Exmouth-Paignton with their end doors, 150/16x being the ideal there.

Would they ever get round the curve at Liskeard?

 

[LowLevel]

Only time I've experienced that is in long tunnels in the vestibules, which can happen on any unit where the vestibules aren't fully sealed. On a 159 now and I can definitely not smell fumes!

Some seem worse than others but it can be eye-watering in the bogs in particular.

 

[IanXC]

Yes you will notice my original post said unless you split up the 3 car units and that would leave you too short on capacity on some trains on the Portsmouth route.

Having a single 3 car unit is also not pragmatic as when it needs maintenance there will be a short-form.

A train which is almost without fail a 5 car formation (certainly was the case every day last week), is 1F07, 07.27 from Cardiff.

Don’t forget at a 4 car 158 only has around 40 more seats than a 3 car 166.

Fratton also need to maintain traction knowledge on 16X as these are the trains which would cover in case of poor availability of 158s.

For this reason its has been acknowledged that the Portsmouth route will always be a mix of 158s and 16Xs but hopefully an ability to have a greater balance of 158 formations.

If additional 158s were secured from the current TfW fleet it would make a lot of sense to loose the sole 3 car, Northern's MD has been busy talking about longer formations so I bet they'd want to take it on.

 

[TheWalrus]

From what I gather, the 175's are quite versatile in their route availability (I'm sure I'll be corrected if not), they'd probably be a good fit for Barnstaple, Okehampton, Gunnislake and Newquay if that's the case. Only three depots to train staff then, possibly Looe though I don't think they'd fit into the platform at Looe being just over 23m vehicles.

They'd be a pain in the backside for the Exmouth-Paignton with their end doors, 150/16x being the ideal there.

Personally think it would be a bit of a waste of a 175 on Cornish branches. The turbos are more suitable on them subject to route clearance.

 

[170UTD]

If additional 158s were secured from the current TfW fleet it would make a lot of sense to loose the sole 3 car, Northern's MD has been busy talking about longer formations so I bet they'd want to take it on.

How many 3 car 158s have GWR got? There's at least two isn't there 158951 and 158959?

 

[HamworthyGoods]

How many 3 car 158s have GWR got? There's at least two isn't there 158951 and 158959?

5 x 3 car 158s of which 4 sets are hybrids.

 

[Energy]

How many 3 car 158s have GWR got? There's at least two isn't there 158951 and 158959?

5 x 3 car 158s of which 4 sets are hybrids.

158798 is the 'proper' 3 car unit. 158950, 158951, 158988, 158989 are the hybrid units.

 

[RPI]

Personally think it would be a bit of a waste of a 175 on Cornish branches. The turbos are more suitable on them subject to route clearance.

Its a case of them being the only things available, better then there than being on the Exmouth-Paignton!

 

[Anonymous10]

Its a case of them being the only things available, better then there than being on the Exmouth-Paignton!

They'd be fine for anything with a high level of end to end traffic I think.

 

[Clarence Yard]

If GWR are allocated the 175 fleet, it will be for 800/HST replacement first and then to release 158’s for Portsmouth-Cardiff, so 175 units would also be operating such services as the Barnstaple and Okehampton.

You really need to go mainly load 5 on the Portsmouth-Cardiff and you haven’t got enough 158 cars to do that entirely so a couple of the workings will have to remain Turbo.

The Welsh 158 units seem destined for Northern and will be too late for GWR anyway. Northern are not interested in doing unit swaps either, that has been suggested and it’s no deal.

Turbos on Cornwall branches? The Looe and Gunny are the problem lines for coupled 23m DMU’s and the Cornish branches work on a long diagram cycle so ideally you want one type to cover all those lines and step up/down through the diagrams when required.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

From what I gather, the 175's are quite versatile in their route availability (I'm sure I'll be corrected if not), they'd probably be a good fit for Barnstaple, Okehampton, Gunnislake and Newquay if that's the case. Only three depots to train staff then, possibly Looe though I don't think they'd fit into the platform at Looe being just over 23m vehicles.

They'd be a pain in the backside for the Exmouth-Paignton with their end doors, 150/16x being the ideal there.

I'd really, really take it as a slap in the face to sit on a 165 for three hours on my uni commute while 175s shuttle to Okehampton and Gunnislake

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I'd suggest swapping the 3 car unit for a 2 car with Northern but given the small increase in seats compared to a 166 I'd agree that more than 4 car 158s would be needed at peak times.

No need to swap a whole unit- just send the middle car to Northern. The middle cars in Northern's existing three-car sets weren't originally paired with the driving cars they're with now. Would mean there would be one unit with Northern which had Fainsa seating in the driving cars and as-built seating in the MS, but that's hardly a deal-breaker.

 

[Neptune]

No need to swap a whole unit- just send the middle car to Northern. The middle cars in Northern's existing three-car sets weren't originally paired with the driving cars they're with now. Would mean there would be one unit with Northern which had Fainsa seating in the driving cars and as-built seating in the MS, but that's hardly a deal-breaker.

The centre car of 798 is owned by Porterbrook and the 2 cars are Angel or Eversholt owned so non starter on that one I’m afraid.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

No need to swap a whole unit- just send the middle car to Northern. The middle cars in Northern's existing three-car sets weren't originally paired with the driving cars they're with now. Would mean there would be one unit with Northern which had Fainsa seating in the driving cars and as-built seating in the MS, but that's hardly a deal-breaker.

Why would GWR want to lose a perfectly good vehicle? 5 coaches is the maximum on Cardiff - Portsmouth (without SDO) so some 3 cars are needed.

As Clarence Yard has pointed out some circuits on that route are destined to remain 16x and some 158s.

 

[TheWalrus]

I'd really, really take it as a slap in the face to sit on a 165 for three hours on my uni commute while 175s shuttle to Okehampton and Gunnislake

I agree. Does anyone go to Gunnislake anyway? Can’t imagine those services will do well after Tavistock has reopened.

 

[YorkRailFan]

I agree. Does anyone go to Gunnislake anyway? Can’t imagine those services will do well after Tavistock has reopened.

There's plenty of demand between Okehampton and Exeter without Tavistock thanks, in part, due to Bude and Launceston as well as surrounding villages.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

The centre car of 798 is owned by Porterbrook and the 2 cars are Angel or Eversholt owned so non starter on that one I’m afraid.

Ah, I always forget the ownership factor... one of the daftest legacies of Major's model of privatisation in my opinion, but that's another discussion entirely.

Why would GWR want to lose a perfectly good vehicle? 5 coaches is the maximum on Cardiff - Portsmouth (without SDO) so some 3 cars are needed.

As Clarence Yard has pointed out some circuits on that route are destined to remain 16x and some 158s.

I never said they did, I was responding to another poster who suggested that 158798 was an awkward fit in GWRs fleet. Given this forum's rabid distaste for anything approaching a "micro-fleet", it's hard to argue against that position.

 

[RPI]

I agree. Does anyone go to Gunnislake anyway? Can’t imagine those services will do well after Tavistock has reopened.

Gunnislake and Calstock are both busy stations for what they are, Gunnislake being a bit of a railhead for Callington.

 

[Dan G]

175s will never run to Okehampton.

Why does anyone think they would? You know 158s never go there, right?