Class 185s off lease

[JonathanH]

According to wikipedia, it says A Track Access Application made by Grand Union Trains to the Office of Rail and Road also cited the possibility of the use of Class 185s on services between Oxford and Bristol. But I'm not if it's true or not. It could be a rumour or not.

No, that is just for timing purposes. Too much is being read into that application (as discussed in detail here)

Put simply, the application by Grand Union needs to be considered against all possible other uses for the paths, including uses that aren't committed because there is no point offering track access to Grand Union if it disrupts better uses for the capacity. There is no commitment at all to run Oxford to Bristol and even less to use 185s - they are simply a convenient train class to base the timings on.

 

[Philip]

As far as Sheffield crew are concerned, even if TPE won the route would it not be more practical to just hire existing EMR crew to work the train on behalf of TPE, as these would be familiar with the route, rather than leasing a new depot and hiring new staff with all the route training that would then be needed?

I would leave the Nottingham-Liverpool as it is. That way 158s could continue on the route and so keep to the timings across the Hope Valley, as the 185 is badly slowed down by the Sprinter speed restrictions.

The 15 185s may be a good option for the Chiltern line services, once TPE have enough loco hauled sets in use.

 

[dorsetdesiro]

Perhaps also the Marshlink route for Southern?

 

[Watershed]

As far as Sheffield crew are concerned, even if TPE won the route would it not be more practical to just hire existing EMR crew to work the train on behalf of TPE, as these would be familiar with the route, rather than leasing a new depot and hiring new staff with all the route training that would then be needed?

I would leave the Nottingham-Liverpool as it is. That way 158s could continue on the route and so keep to the timings across the Hope Valley, as the 185 is badly slowed down by the Sprinter speed restrictions.

The 15 185s may be a good option for the Chiltern line services, once TPE have enough loco hauled sets in use.

If the route ends up being transferred to TPE, it is certainly possible that it's initially an 'on paper' change with the operational side of things remaining the same. In the longer term, there are appreciable benefits to using traincrew and units based further west than Nottingham, particularly when it comes to disruption, engineering work etc.

Based on SRTs, 158s are half a minute faster from Sheffield to Stockport. That's margin of error stuff. 185s are faster on the rest of the route.

 

[43096]

Based on SRTs, 158s are half a minute faster from Sheffield to Stockport. That's margin of error stuff. 185s are faster on the rest of the route.

185s are also better through the Castlefield corridor as the 1/3 and 2/3 doors make for faster boarding. I think they need something like 6 circuits for the Nottingham-Liverpool service. Using pairs of units would require 12 185s. Three for maintenance cover gives 15. Handy!

 

[LowLevel]

It stays with EMR for now, IE the short to medium term. However the DfT reserved the right to remap it to TPE at their discretion at some point in the future so I'd not be surprised (based on no particular knowledge, it is all being kept hush hush, nobody really knows anything outside of the people working on the plans) to see EMR come up with an operating proposal for the route that would allow it to be easily transferred to TPE in the future should that decision be made.

 

[RHolmes]

As far as Sheffield crew are concerned, even if TPE won the route would it not be more practical to just hire existing EMR crew to work the train on behalf of TPE, as these would be familiar with the route, rather than leasing a new depot and hiring new staff with all the route training that would then be needed?

No because the likelyhood of it being kept as a separate service in that scenario would be minimal. I strongly expect that diagrams would involve both Liverpool and Sheffield drivers with Manchester Piccadilly, Sheffield and Liverpool conductors which help when things go wrong, particularly with diversions such as Chat Moss

The service on the west is already quite unreliable when disruption occurs without the possibility of just using Nottingham based staff

 

[RailWonderer]

I think I was the one who started the 'rumour' although I only meant it would make most sense if Liverpool - Notts happened, not that it would. However I don't see 185s going south, especially on lines where Siemens stock is not maintained like some of the places mentioned. A side note, Is it down to track geology in the Hope Valley compared to the heavy weight of the 185s why they can't go at higher Sprinter speeds? Otherwise those restrictions should have been lifted already.

 

[Watershed]

185s are also better through the Castlefield corridor as the 1/3 and 2/3 doors make for faster boarding. I think they need something like 6 circuits for the Nottingham-Liverpool service. Using pairs of units would require 12 185s. Three for maintenance cover gives 15. Handy!

Indeed, and when you have a fleet of 51 all maintained under one roof then you can afford to reduce the spare/maintenance percentage cover slightly compared to if you have two smaller fleets. That might free up an extra unit or two overall.

I think I was the one who started the 'rumour' although I only meant it would make most sense if Liverpool - Notts happened, not that it would. However I don't see 185s going south, especially on lines where Siemens stock is not maintained like some of the places mentioned. A side note, Is it down to track geology in the Hope Valley compared to the heavy weight of the 185s why they can't go at higher Sprinter speeds? Otherwise those restrictions should have been lifted already.

The axle loading is nearly 50% higher than a 158's. There is no way they will ever qualify for Sprinter speeds.

 

[Crossover]

A side note, Is it down to track geology in the Hope Valley compared to the heavy weight of the 185s why they can't go at higher Sprinter speeds?

I don't know the specific route, but 185's cannot use Sprinter (SP) speed restrictions due to, I believe, their axle load.

170's could, which meant they could go quicker on the Hull line

 

[Jamesrob637]

A York to Scarborough shuttle is 3 car instead of Nova 3 today, so I think TPE have had to pinch a unit off one of the Redcars, illustrating how tight things currently are.

 

[RailWonderer]

I saw a 185 on the 20:00 York Scarborough a few days ago. I thought some Scarborough was still booked 185.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

It stays with EMR for now, IE the short to medium term. However the DfT reserved the right to remap it to TPE at their discretion at some point in the future so I'd not be surprised (based on no particular knowledge, it is all being kept hush hush, nobody really knows anything outside of the people working on the plans) to see EMR come up with an operating proposal for the route that would allow it to be easily transferred to TPE in the future should that decision be made.

It will surely all be part of the First Group termination of the TPE franchise negotiation with DfT, due to complete by end-January.
After that it will simply be DfT moving the pieces on the chessboard, whoever operates the trains.
So far, no services have changed operator in the other termination/direct award agreements.
Abellio will also be having a termination/direct award negotiation with DfT for EMR.

 

[RHolmes]

A York to Scarborough shuttle is 3 car instead of Nova 3 today, so I think TPE have had to pinch a unit off one of the Redcars, illustrating how tight things currently are.

That’s more likely to be due to a last minute fault where they can simply take half of the Redcar service off at York than a shortage, again all traincrew sign the 185 and Scarborough route at York so someone can be found very quickly

 

[Jamesrob637]

That’s more likely to be due to a last minute fault where they can simply take half of the Redcar service off at York than a shortage, again all traincrew sign the 185 and Scarborough route at York so someone can be found very quickly

At least the services can all still run. So no, no releasing any 185s for another year yet.

 

[James Kevill]

I Think that the Class 185 Desiro transferring to East Midlands Railway will now not happen due to Covid-19. And they are still needed for the busy TPE services.

 

[Fincra5]

Perhaps also the Marshlink route for Southern?

Suppose that would free up some 171 units to go over to EMR and become more 170s/ 170s again!

 

[Steve14]

If some are freeing up, then surely SWR would be an ideal TOC, to replace the 158s/159s? SWR maintains an existing Desiro fleet and may just require further training to work with the diesel traction power?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 Jan 2021 ==

If some are freeing up, then surely SWR would be an ideal TOC, to replace the 158s/159s? SWR maintains an existing Desiro fleet and may just require further training to work with the diesel traction power?

Then again, there may be some restrictions imposed on the weight in the route between Waterloo and Exeter St Davids/Thomas along the SWML...

 

[43096]

If some are freeing up, then surely SWR would be an ideal TOC, to replace the 158s/159s? SWR maintains an existing Desiro fleet and may just require further training to work with the diesel traction power?

This has been done to death in the Speculative Ideas section and thoroughly debunked as an option.

 

[DB]

If some are freeing up, then surely SWR would be an ideal TOC, to replace the 158s/159s? SWR maintains an existing Desiro fleet and may just require further training to work with the

Quite apart from the weight issue, there are nowhere near enough of them going to be surplus to replace the whole SWR sprinter fleet!

 

[hooverboy]

Quite apart from the weight issue, there are nowhere near enough of them going to be surplus to replace the whole SWR sprinter fleet!

For SWR use(158/9 replacements),how feasible would it be for siemens to build some unpowered trailer cars to go with them? I could perhaps see it working as 5 car units running on 3 engines. max platform length is 10 cars anyway so they would fit as a 2x5car consist.

To reduce the weight a bit, it might be possible to retrofit the bogies with the newer SF7000 lightweight type mightn't it? That would save about 5 tonnes per vehicle.

Not an ideal solution, going to electric transmission and using the engines as 750V gensets,plus DC pickup would be better, but changing the control systems would probably be rather expensive.

 

[D365]

I Think that the Class 185 Desiro transferring to East Midlands Railway will now not happen due to Covid-19. And they are still needed for the busy TPE services.

Well yes, they’ll be needed until the Mk5s are all in service.

 

[Fokx]

I Think that the Class 185 Desiro transferring to East Midlands Railway will now not happen due to Covid-19. And they are still needed for the busy TPE services.

They weren’t confirmed as moving to EMR in the first place, this was just a rumour, however a highly likely one

The full 51 are staying with TPE now until (atleast) December 2021

 

[James Kevill]

They weren’t confirmed as moving to EMR in the first place, this was just a rumour, however a highly likely one

The full 51 are staying with TPE now until (atleast) December 2021

Fair Enough. Until everything in will be back to normal soon.

 

[superalbs]

If some are freeing up, then surely SWR would be an ideal TOC, to replace the 158s/159s? SWR maintains an existing Desiro fleet and may just require further training to work with the diesel traction power?

The return of the obsession to replace 159s!

 

[DannyMich2018]

Well yes, they’ll be needed until the Mk5s are all in service.

Whenever that may be...... This year will be 3 years since the first Mk5s arrived, about a year since the last set, even pre-Covid only 4 were in use. No doubt the slowest introduction of any new train. A complete waste of money.

 

[Whistler40145]

You've also got that silly multiple-hundred-mile ECS working in the morning which could be avoided.

Would 185s be still maintained at Ardwick depot or will they be overnight facilities at Allerton and Nottingham to cut down on lengthy ECS movements?

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Would 185s be still maintained at Ardwick depot or will they be overnight facilities at Allerton and Nottingham to cut down on lengthy ECS movements?

The long ECS moves are less about the stock, more about the crews. If EMR had a crew base in Liverpool or Manchester they'd be able to design their diagrams such that a handful of units would overnight there each night.

 

[Whistler40145]

The long ECS moves are less about the stock, more about the crews. If EMR had a crew base in Liverpool or Manchester they'd be able to design their diagrams such that a handful of units would overnight there each night.

The alternative option is hiring in train crew from another TOC that already are based in Liverpool, Manchester, Sheffield and Nottingham, e.g. Service operated by FTPE or EMR with a Northern or FTPE crew

 

[61653 HTAFC]

The alternative option is hiring in train crew from another TOC that already are based in Liverpool, Manchester, Sheffield and Nottingham, e.g. Service operated by FTPE or EMR with a Northern or FTPE crew

I'm surprised that isn't how it's done to be honest, plenty of other examples of operators sharing resources but for some reason the long dead runs persist here.