Class 221 for Grand Central

[DarloRich]

I feel like we all know the answer to that, the treasury probably won't give the money for it.

I know - it is just maddening. We are going to run another fleet of diesels under wires for large parts of thier journeys instead of doing something better.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

CrossCountry aren't relevant to this discussion, but on a closing matter I will just add that even if the unsourced claims of ten going to Grand Central come into fruition, there still remains ten left. No one's to say CrossCountry won't get those. It's not as good as twenty extra, but it's better than nothing and would certainly go some way to increase capacity. Baring in mind 1tph Newcastle Reading with 1tp2h extension to Southampton is now 5tpd York Reading with 3 starting at Newcastle too, the loss of the overhyped HSTs would be reasonably compensated by ten Voyagers. Nice consistent product too.

Back on topic, if this was a short term lease for 142 and 143 as Grand Central appear to have worded it, why are they getting all vinyled up and an interior refresh?

 

[Neptune]

The 10 remaining AWC 221’s seems a good like for like replacement for the 5 HST’s if it was ever to come to fruition.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Back on topic, if this was a short term lease for 142 and 143 as Grand Central appear to have worded it, why are they getting all vinyled up and an interior refresh?

Presumably it's "short-term" on a trial basis, subject to GC being satisfied with the units and getting their access rights extended- in which case another 8 will follow once Avanti hands them back. Those two off-lease units have been out of use for a fair while, so it's understandable that a refresh/deep clean would be desirable. Doing the vinyls while you're at it makes sense, particularly if it's just a logo and a bit of branding as was hinted at upthread.

 

[WAB]

Back on topic, if this was a short term lease for 142 and 143 as Grand Central appear to have worded it, why are they getting all vinyled up and an interior refresh?

It’s probably linked to the expiry of their track access agreement. A renewal might mean the 180s go and the fleet becomes fully 221, or it might mean a new fleet. I don’t see the availability of the 180s ever improving enough to cover the current number of diagrams - they’re too far gone.

 

[marsker]

Could people be getting confused here, the published details show 2 Class 221s going on short term lease, that is actually 10 vehicles - scope for confusion?

 

[Energy]

Could people be getting confused here, the published details show 2 Class 221s going on short term lease, that is actually 10 vehicles - scope for confusion?

From what I understand, the 2 on short term lease are definite and are to supplement the 180s as they have become more unreliable.

The remaining 8 will depend on the track access agreement, if it gets extended GC will either change fully to 221s or new build stock (likely the former).

 

[Doomotron]

sigh. I detest voyagers so wont be using GC but why, WHY, WHY aren't all the Voyagers going to XC to make a common fleet and provide extra capacity on a very busy route?

Take off lease GWR/XC HST for two years and OK an order for new bi mode trains for GC. That or put a 47 on again.........

(FFS: Kenny, get me xantac)

Your solution to the problem is to revive a non-PRM-compliant fleet of trains that are in cold storage or a fleet of trains that are about to be retired, with all the training costs and possible price of getting them allowed to run on the ECML again, so that in two years time they can spend more money to buy a brand new fleet and have to train staff on another completely unrelated train type to what they would have had before then? All of this so that the two off-lease trains and the eight other ones 'set' to be heading to Grand Central can go to an operator that never made any comments about taking them on in the first place? While I agree that all the 221s should eventually go to XC, this is the least sensible way to do it. With the two currently going to Grand Central, the costs of staff training are justified more by the fact they're not over fourty years old and wouldn't be replaced in two years' time.

We are going to run another fleet of diesels under wires for large parts of thier journeys instead of doing something better.

So you're suggesting sending them to CrossCountry instead, where they'll also spend most of their time running on electrified routes as well. Right. You should have thought that one through a bit more.

 

[Jimini]

So you're suggesting sending them to CrossCountry instead, where they'll also spend most of their time running on electrified routes as well. Right. You should have thought that one through a bit more.

Just off the top of my head, Coventry to Bournemouth is quite the schlep that’s not wired up?

 

[Doomotron]

Just off the top of my head, Coventry to Bournemouth is quite the schlep that’s not wired up?

Not just that - the Edinburgh Haymarket to Doncaster section of the ECML is close to 200 miles long. Combined with other electrified sections such as Coventry to Manchester via Stoke and via Crewe or Basingstoke to Bournemouth, we have a very large amount of track that is electrified. If the original plan for the Voyagers to be loco-hauled stock had come true we could have avoided this issue with bi-mode or electric locomotives on suitable routes but alas that never happened. In fact if it did happen I imagine about now they'd be introducing a EuroDual design with diesel and OHLE compatibility and possibly third rail too, but that's just speculating.

Granted it isn't as bad as and Grand Central's situation when it comes to the proportion of electrified against unelectrified track, but overall there is physically more of it for CrossCountry.

 

[cactustwirly]

Not just that - the Edinburgh Haymarket to Doncaster section of the ECML is close to 200 miles long. Combined with other electrified sections such as Coventry to Manchester via Stoke and via Crewe or Basingstoke to Bournemouth, we have a very large amount of track that is electrified. If the original plan for the Voyagers to be loco-hauled stock had come true we could have avoided this issue with bi-mode or electric locomotives on suitable routes but alas that never happened. In fact if it did happen I imagine about now they'd be introducing a EuroDual design with diesel and OHLE compatibility and possibly third rail too, but that's just speculating.

On the Plymouth to Edinburgh route, basically the entire section is unelectrified from York to Plymouth except a very small area in Birmingham

 

[Jimini]

Not just that - the Edinburgh Haymarket to Doncaster section of the ECML is close to 200 miles long. Combined with other electrified sections such as Coventry to Manchester via Stoke and via Crewe or Basingstoke to Bournemouth, we have a very large amount of track that is electrified. If the original plan for the Voyagers to be loco-hauled stock had come true we could have avoided this issue with bi-mode or electric locomotives on suitable routes but alas that never happened. In fact if it did happen I imagine about now they'd be introducing a EuroDual design with diesel and OHLE compatibility and possibly third rail too, but that's just speculating.

Granted it isn't as bad as and Grand Central's situation when it comes to the proportion of electrified against unelectrified track, but overall there is physically more of it for CrossCountry.

Basingstoke to Bournemouth is DC / third rail?

 

[D365]

Back on topic, if this was a short term lease for 142 and 143 as Grand Central appear to have worded it, why are they getting all vinyled up and an interior refresh?

Units 221142/143 have been deformed and reformed several times, so it's not a big stretch to imagine that they require a refresh.

 

[Doomotron]

On the Plymouth to Edinburgh route, basically the entire section is unelectrified from York to Plymouth except a very small area in Birmingham

I'm going solely by the trackage itself, not the services (which I am not familiar with). However any section of electrification being used is a good thing; GWR planned on using the 769s on third rail for the short sections where it's present on the Reading to Gatwick service despite most of the route not being electrified.

Basingstoke to Bournemouth is DC / third rail?

Yes.

 

[Mag_seven]

A reminder that this is for the discussion of 10x Class 221 for Grand Central.

If anyone wants to discuss anything else such as what XC should or should not have done then they are welcome to start an appropriate thread elsewhere.

thanks

 

[AJDesiro]

Units 221142/143 have been deformed and reformed several times, so it's not a big stretch to imagine that they require a refresh.

Forgive me if this isn't what you meant by refresh, but these units were both refreshed internally in 2020 by Avanti.

 

[D365]

Forgive me if this isn't what you meant by refresh, but these units were both refreshed internally in 2020 by Avanti.

My mistake - getting unit numbers mixed up. I’ve been spending too much time on the distinctly tired-feeling CrossCountry Voyagers…

 

[CR165022]

Forgive me if this isn't what you meant by refresh, but these units were both refreshed internally in 2020 by Avanti.

Did 143 ever get the refresh though? As it's incident seemed to happen around the same time the refreshes were happening

 

[Iskra]

Is it possible that the first two are being leased separately for training and to provide hot spare sets, before all 10 are hired at a later date? It would seem a lot of work to train everyone up just for 2 units.

I must say, I am looking forward to seeing a voyager in GC black and orange. It’s a livery that seems to make anything look incredibly smart.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I must say, I am looking forward to seeing a voyager in GC black and orange. It’s a livery that seems to make anything look incredibly smart.

To your eye, perhaps. I think the smartest a Voyager has looked would be when 101 was put in Flowing Silk, though I'd have preferred a black front.

 

[Railperf]

GC have confirmed only x2 221s on a short term lease on a comment on LinkedIn, in which they also acknowledge issues with the 180s.

How many in total have they supposedly agreed to take?

What are the problems with the 180's. Seems to be clear that with lots of TLC they can be made pretty reliable. So is it the cost of keeping them in that state too much compared to the 221/222's?
Or is it just that spares are now unavailable or not in plentiful enough supply?

 

[Techniquest]

Is it possible that the first two are being leased separately for training and to provide hot spare sets, before all 10 are hired at a later date? It would seem a lot of work to train everyone up just for 2 units.

I must say, I am looking forward to seeing a voyager in GC black and orange. It’s a livery that seems to make anything look incredibly smart.

That was the impression I was under, 2 221s that are already available get tidied up and put into crew training roles and such like. When they're ready, the rest move over in due course.

Personally, I think it's a smart move. I've long had a dislike of the 180s, which is a shame as they had the potential to be good. Seating wise they were excellent, but the rest of it no.

A 221 from Sunderland to London would definitely be rather preferrable to a 180, if only for the fact I'd actually arrive without the train failing

I'll absolutely echo that about GC livery on a 221. It's going to look great, black and orange are an excellent combination in this case.

 

[AJDesiro]

Did 143 ever get the refresh though? As it's incident seemed to happen around the same time the refreshes were happening

Yes, the refresh had been completed before the incident iirc.

 

[TreacleMiller]

What are the problems with the 180's. Seems to be clear that with lots of TLC they can be made pretty reliable. So is it the cost of keeping them in that state too much compared to the 221/222's?
Or is it just that spares are now unavailable or not in plentiful enough supply?

They frequently fail. The number ive passed in loops left for recovery isn't funny. Their own post confirms they are disappointed with the 180s.

 

[Wyrleybart]

They frequently fail. The number ive passed in loops left for recovery isn't funny. Their own post confirms they are disappointed with the 180s.

Has 180102 left Claypole loop yet after being dumped there on Tuesday afternoon with no engines left working ?

 

[TreacleMiller]

Wasn't there when in went past today.

 

[Snow1964]

From what I understand, the 2 on short term lease are definite and are to supplement the 180s as they have become more unreliable.

The remaining 8 will depend on the track access agreement, if it gets extended GC will either change fully to 221s or new build stock (likely the former).

If the two units are to supplement the 180s, wouldn't they need to have track access rights and route clearances.

Surely then doesn't really matter if operating 2 units or 10, once they are cleared on paper. Although price per mile might be different to 180s

 

[Rhydgaled]

Is it? That means XC soldiers on with severe undercapacity yet again.

Also be a fairly hefty downgrade for GC's passengers unless they intend on rearranging the seating, but that would seem out of scope for a "refresh"!

I've not been on 180s much (just one trip or possibly two (I forget whether I had a 180 both ways or whether it was a Turbo or IC125 in the other direction)) and can't really remember what they are like inside but have spent quite a bit of time on 175s. The 175s at least are way more spacious (more legroom in airline seating and more tables) than an XC Voyager so assuming the interior of the 180 is the same as the 175s then certainly a downgrade for Grand Central passengers. At least Avanti didn't refurbish the Voyagers with the new hard seats that are going into the Pendolinos though, and the 'hybrid' coach on the Avanti Voyagers does compensate (to a degree) for the lack of tables in the rest of standard class.

According to who? Your personal tastes? I’d probably rather have a Voyager than a 180.

For standard class, the amount of legroom in airline-style seats and the odds of being able to see out of the window are far better on a 175 (and presumably thererfore also 180s) than an XC Voyager. The Voyager seats might be a bit nicer though, since the ones on the 175s are quite hard and Avanti have left the original seats on the Voyagers rather than following the concrete trend as they have with the Pendos.

The main thing I see as bad from this is that they're an opportunity to sort out XC's capacity issues (and replace the HSTs) which AGAIN is being ignored.

Agreed.

Ten 221s will still remain. That’s still enough to strengthen a good deal of XC’s shorter Voyager services, should they be taken up.

10 Avanti Voyagers is only about 275 more seats in total than XC's five sets of 7 mark 3s - so barely enough to replace the mark 3s let alone provide the extra capacity across the board that XC needs, so the missed opportunity represented by 221s going to Grand Central is still very real.

Don't forget Grand Union have recently acquired open access rights for 10 years from December 2024 for a Carmarthen-London service too. The plan there was existing spare Diesel trains initially, then new bi-modes.

I don't remember Grand Union planning to use spare diesel trains - if I recall correctly it was originally going to be Euston-Stirling and Paddington-Cardiff - both routes using IC225s (ie. mark 4 sets with class 91s for traction) with the latter route being extended to Carmarthen once new bi-modes could be introduced. I think now they have given up on the interim electric service and now propose going straight to the new bi-modes.

 

[Iskra]

Is there anything to stop XC having the remaining 8 units temporarily until more units become available and GC crews are trained up? GC could then take 8 from the next tranche. That way everyone is happy in the short term.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

Is there anything to stop XC having the remaining 8 units temporarily until more units become available and GC crews are trained up? GC could then take 8 from the next tranche. That way everyone is happy in the short term.

The 8 are currently in use with Avanti, so no, XC can't have them.