anthony263
Established Member
So the 1 day the units seem to be behaving themselves the problem is down to the police
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Class 230 units training/introduction on the Borderlands line: updates
- Thread starter Xenophon PCDGS
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SuperLuke2334
Established Member
That seems about right! Hopefully though, touch wood, they're settling in a bit now.
CaergwrleKen
Member
Wow some deluded people, they are complete rubbish and totally unreliable
anthony263
Established Member
Dont think they had a good day yesterday. Seems to vary each day. When they work they not bad its getting them.to work without issues thats the hard part
185143
Established Member
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To be fair, noting your username, most of us won't be local to the line or the units. We don't properly see the failings of them. We just travel on one and enjoy (or not) the experience of doing so, assuming it turns up. If it doesn't then it's little more than a grumble and a detour via Chester for most people.
It's too easy to sit from afar and only look at the good things without having to suffer the bad. To be quite honest, I'm amazed the Borderlands line has any passengers left. I parked at Hawarden earlier to get the 14:58. I think 4 of the 14 parking spaces were in use.
CaergwrleKen
Member
Sorry for maybe going off the topic a bit but it’s not just the Bidston line, Wrexham passengers have constant problems on the main line trains always full two carriages, the Premier train has been cut again and is also unreliable, i know TFW have had some problems but Wrexham seems to be a forgotten town when it comes to the railway
Yes unfortunately the line users have been driven away, but thats not really the sole fault of the 230s it was the 175 debacle mainly to blame, when they took the 150s for so called more important lines for months, replacing trains with buses taking two and even 3 times as long. We then got 230s that failed or were severely delayed providing a 2hr service (meaning commuting to Livrrppol or Wrexham before 9am was impossible) instead of a promised half hour service, buses on saturday and our best service was on a Sunday when 150s became available. Two hourly resulted from a lack of trained crew despite the 230s being here since 2020. You have to ask did TFW have a training plan. Won't detail the thermal incidents.
Having said that, 230s are nice, when they work, much better than 150s for comfort, but are not reliable.
My concern is that TFWs management decisions are scuppering any chance of 777 battery trains being used on the Borderlands as customers have been driven away.
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meld3
Member
I went for them today....
008 was on the training runs.
010 failed on 2F58 in the morning, limped to Bidston and went to depot. Its next outing 2J60/2F70 were cancelled and no bus was available. It was taken to depot and returned for 2J68/2J76 trips.
007 struggled on 2F62 and 25 mins late when I caught it, then attended by a Fitter at Bidston who said it may need swapping out but try one more trip first.
There were people at Shotton who had to wait 90 mins for a southbound service after 010 dropped out with no bus cover.
Its a wonder the locals bother, there seemed as many enthusiasts as locals to my eyes.
markymark2000
On Moderation
No bus was available? Who told you that? There were 2 buses on standby in Chester from 8am this morning and they never moved.
Thanks for the info.
Agree I feel for the locals, those who use it probably have no other choice.
I'd love to know what it is exactly that's causing them to fail (when it's not pollen). I've been told a full reset seems to sort faults a lot of the time. Hopefully solutions are being sought.
If they were solely for the line, they could have been better located, so not a minimum of 20mins to 30min away from the line. Makes you think who is making such decisions
markymark2000
On Moderation
No, they weren't there specifically for the Borderlands line, they were for use anywhere on the network.
Chester is the best location for buses to get to the borderlands quickly as well as quickly respond to other issues on the network.
You then have to ask why shotton was left with no service southbound for 90mins. Who decides when they can be used?
childwallblues
Established Member
The use of 777s is dependent on agreement between TfW and Merseytravel and DfT. Passengers would return if a direct connection into Liverpool was achieved. Would save them driving along the A550 Welsh Road to Hooton to access the Merseyrail.
meld3
Member
Clearly a decision was made higher up then as it was stated on the platform information screens at Shotton, plus the ticket office lady was very apologetic.
Didn't affect me as I was going north.
Agree with what you say about a550 , but lack of existiing customers would weaken any case for investment. Hopefully they can make a mix of 230s and 197s work, but it would probably need a miracle or a service every 45min instead of the propsed 30 mins. A 45min frequency could allow a 15min buffer for late running.
Wyrleybart
Established Member
Even quicker basing one at Shotton surely ? Reading this thread it seems a lot of issues occur in the Shotton area, and it could also serve downstairs too.
I would imagine the Borderlands route is pretty high up the TfW service failure chart so an RRB actually at an important station on the route would also provide a little bit of passenger confidence surely ?
markymark2000
On Moderation
No place to park a bus in Shotton. Plus Chester is ideal for Manchester, Crewe, Halton Curve or the Coast like going down. Buses are not there for a certain line so they are strategically placed so that they can be used easiest in the best way.
Wrexham is where borderlands only standbys are normally kept but the firm's then keep the buses at their depots as they are close enough to the station and so it would make no difference.
Plus, this doesn't address the key issue that tfw didn't ask the bus to move. Irrespective of its location if TFW don't ask for the bus to move, it won't move.
Wyrleybart
Established Member
That is fair enough, and really, if a 230 is not reliable enough to do the job, then you shouldn't have to position sticking plasters on it's route.
Your last sentence is key in his instance.
https://www.senedd.tv/Meeting/Archive/b628e320-938e-4a12-b32e-749f9897c9c0?autostart=True#
Class 230's being briefly discussed in Public Accounts meeting.
Below is copy of the letter sent and reply received from TFW CEO.
https://business.senedd.wales/ieListDocuments.aspx?CId=735&MId=13386
It also includes the costs of the units and associated costs with the program.
Class 230's being briefly discussed in Public Accounts meeting.
Below is copy of the letter sent and reply received from TFW CEO.
https://business.senedd.wales/ieListDocuments.aspx?CId=735&MId=13386
It also includes the costs of the units and associated costs with the program.
Xenophon PCDGS
Veteran Member
In the final paragraphs of the response letter by the TfW CEO, it states...."The Class 230 units have been generally operating reliably".
Zontar
Member
£30m for that bag of spanners....they've been had.
Someone should be accountable for the purchase of these, clearly never been fit for purpose.
Someone should be accountable for the purchase of these, clearly never been fit for purpose.
Disaster of a day yesterday with multiple failures unfortunately.
I know minister(s) and high up management have been involved, making multiple trips up to ride them in recent weeks. They visited Birkenhead North depot the other day. I'm just curious as to what the solution will be.
They've been in service for a few months now, surely this is enough time to see what the common problems are and look into solutions/modifications?
Regarding comments upthread about "they've had plenty of time to train drivers/guards" - the issue with that is many had been trained, then the thermal incidents followed and the fleet was out of action for months on end. Competency lapsed for those who had been trained so refreshers were then needed, plus plenty of new staff have since joined who needed training.
When I started I was told I wouldn't sign 230s as they were looking to bin them off completely. Then suddenly they had to go into service and here we are!
I know minister(s) and high up management have been involved, making multiple trips up to ride them in recent weeks. They visited Birkenhead North depot the other day. I'm just curious as to what the solution will be.
They've been in service for a few months now, surely this is enough time to see what the common problems are and look into solutions/modifications?
Regarding comments upthread about "they've had plenty of time to train drivers/guards" - the issue with that is many had been trained, then the thermal incidents followed and the fleet was out of action for months on end. Competency lapsed for those who had been trained so refreshers were then needed, plus plenty of new staff have since joined who needed training.
When I started I was told I wouldn't sign 230s as they were looking to bin them off completely. Then suddenly they had to go into service and here we are!
CaergwrleKen
Member
There seems to be a lot of holes in that letter unfortunately. Looks like todays service is going the same way the 0935 Bidston to Wrexham looks like it has gone missing. The other one has also failed apparently all trains cancelled now
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meld3
Member
008 and 010 started today.
010 lasted to mid morning, 009 lasted to midday.
A few hours of nothing, and 008 gets ripped off the training runs to provide a service.
But if they actually spent £30m on these units, then I have some magic beans for sale for just £3m.....
010 lasted to mid morning, 009 lasted to midday.
A few hours of nothing, and 008 gets ripped off the training runs to provide a service.
But if they actually spent £30m on these units, then I have some magic beans for sale for just £3m.....
Sam 76
Member
Went to visit a friend from Wrexham today. Nice 230 trains. Sadly can’t get back as they are cancelled 
CaergwrleKen
Member
Bit of a number mix up i think. 009 and 010 were the service trains this morning on RTT, 008 must have been on the training. All trains are cancelled now this is probably because they can’t rescue one if they have failed.
Zontar
Member
Yesterday was awful. Trains over hour late, set swaps, running empty....utter utter shower of the proverbial. 30 'kin million quid. Someone really is laughing their cotton socks off all the way to the bank
Pacco
Member
If they did Merseyrail battery trains it would be a smash. 30 minute headway to start with, trains through the loop so people can get to Liverpool instead of changing at Bidston (which is like being on a mini Piccadilly platform 13/14 in terms of bleakness). Definitely a case of 'build it and they will come'. People in the area really like the Merseyrail offer they don't really check the timetable, they just rock up and go.
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