Sam 76
Member
I’d be careful what you wish for for now. Sadly as amazing as the 777s are and as much as I like them reliability like the 230s is a huge issue
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Class 230 units training/introduction on the Borderlands line: updates
- Thread starter Xenophon PCDGS
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lrailadventure
Member
Merseyrail hasn't got the battery-operated trains in service yet so I'm not sure it would "be a smash".. The 777s that are in service are also very unreliable (possibly not to the extent of the 230s but hard to judge due to differences in service frequencies - 1 cancelled train on the merseyrail network has less impact than on borderlands line), there are often cancellations through PIS / door / step board etc faults on the Ormskirk and Kirkby lines & commuters are fed up with it. They definitely do still have to check the timetable, particularly for any cancellations. There's also no guarantee that if Merseyrail did take over the operations of the Borderlands lines that it would be 30-minute services, nor that it would go through the Liverpool loop.
I know the North Wales Transport Commission have recommended that Merseyrail take over operations, but have Merseyrail made any suggestion that they actually want to take over the route?
Xenophon PCDGS
Veteran Member
How much autonomy does the North Wales Transport Commision actually have and would the Welsh Government have the final say on what train services run in their area?
Plenty. And Merseyrail don’t have to do the DFTs bidding either as Merseytravel is in control of the franchise. The two sides have a good relationship, especially with the senior ops management of TFW having prior experience with Merseyrail.
The 777s are also improving in reliability. Software issues are (mostly) sorted and other issues pretty well understood.
CaergwrleKen
Member
After a cancellation this morning and a steady few hours the service has collapsed again, probably be a double swap now to keep the rest of service going but for how long
1430 off Wrexham axed 230007 due to loss of multiple gensets on inbound.
Also noticed a plain white enviro 200 bus parked outside Wrexham General Station all morning with a driver sat onboard at the back - possibly a backup bus?
markymark2000
On Moderation
Yes, that's a standby bus.
3-car 150's will not fit on all the platforms so notes viable solution.
The NWTC is a completely advisory body and has no power to do anything. Th Welsh Government through TfW are responsible for services Wrexham to Hawarden Bridge, Neston through the agreement of DfT. Heswall, Upton and Bidston are Merseytravels problem.
What is the range of a 777 on batteries alone? Your answer needs to take into account the gradients from Shotton to Buckley.
Early discussions, two or three years ago now, were centred on the notion that TfW would run from Wrexham to Liverpool using battery equipped 777s leased from Merseytravel. That would make sense as the extra units could be drawn from the options that Merseytravel hold with Stadler, rather than TfW having to negotiate with the manufacturer for a small production run. Rapid recharging would be required at Wrexham Central and possibly at an intermediate point, Shotton being the most likely.
Those thoughts may have changed but nothing firm is likely to happen until battery operation to Headbolt Lane is deemed successful. Trial operation on the section from Kirkby is expected to commence shortly with service trains continuing as empty stock to the new terminus, before returning to Kirkby to pick up passengers towards Liverpool.
Those thoughts may have changed but nothing firm is likely to happen until battery operation to Headbolt Lane is deemed successful. Trial operation on the section from Kirkby is expected to commence shortly with service trains continuing as empty stock to the new terminus, before returning to Kirkby to pick up passengers towards Liverpool.
CaergwrleKen
Member
150 covering an extended full diagram by the looks of it starting with the 0620 Bidston this usually stands down at 1840 but it’s extending to work the evening so the last from Bidston will run for the first time in a while
185
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Out on this yesterday with a short hop from Neston to Heswall. It was on time (??!!) as was the one 40 minutes in front of it.
Doors did take about a week to open / close, so we did close the doors after ourselves to get the train away quicker at both stops. A shame - noticably no passengers, a sign people have given up on the line.
Underneath did not sound healthy, for any train I've been on in my 25+ years on the railway.
Doors did take about a week to open / close, so we did close the doors after ourselves to get the train away quicker at both stops. A shame - noticably no passengers, a sign people have given up on the line.
Underneath did not sound healthy, for any train I've been on in my 25+ years on the railway.
CaergwrleKen
Member
The Sunday timetable can’t really be relied on because it’s very messy and they have drop backs on most trips.
Monday update 009 looks like it’s had enough almost an hour late on 1435 from Bidston
Monday update 009 looks like it’s had enough almost an hour late on 1435 from Bidston
Cancellations because of PIS…. Sounds as if someone’s taking it!
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Was not the idea of the 230s, similarly to the Marston Vale and East West Rail, that they'd last about 10 years which would be enough time to work out whether they wanted to hand it over to Merseyrail or not and if Merseyrail would want it, and to get the extra battery 777s ordered?
The conversation at the time was with the Chair of the Liverpool City Region Transport Authority. There was no suggestion that TfW would not continue to run services on the line, but that Merseytravel would be willing to lease 777s to TfW to enable them to run from Bidston around the Liverpool Loop. That was his position at the time but what will happen going forward remains to be seen. The success of the battery operation of the 777s and the determination of the WAG to have through Wrexham-Liverpool services will no doubt be major factors.
CaergwrleKen
Member
Problems already this morning 007 looks like it’s in trouble on first journey
185
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Tis a shame they cant have a short 4km (Shotton elev 6m → Hawarden → Buckley elev 108m) section of third rail on the Wrexham bound side only, to take the weight off the batteries, or, budget 750vdc tram style overheads if a 3rd rail easement is not given - modify a couple of trains for it. If I recall, there's only one foot crossing at Ash View - the duplicate crossing at Buckley can go with the station crossing being the only one - electrification could finish just before there.
samrammstein
Member
Enjoyed 007 from Bidston to General and back this afternoon.
2F74 was delayed at Wrexham General waiting for a new guard coming off the late running 1V96. Otherwise 230007 seemed to be running fine after her problems this morning. Onboard staff were great, as always with TfW, very apologetic and even a dedicated cleaner onboard for the duration.
Rather noticeable was the rough jointed track heading South out of Bidston. The unit sounded like it was going to fall apart and I've had smoother rides from the wooden coasters at Blackpool.
2F74 was delayed at Wrexham General waiting for a new guard coming off the late running 1V96. Otherwise 230007 seemed to be running fine after her problems this morning. Onboard staff were great, as always with TfW, very apologetic and even a dedicated cleaner onboard for the duration.
Rather noticeable was the rough jointed track heading South out of Bidston. The unit sounded like it was going to fall apart and I've had smoother rides from the wooden coasters at Blackpool.
Wyrleybart
Established Member
Haha and bearing in mind the TfW 230s were theoretically out of a comprehensive overhaul at Long Marston, they have barely lasted three years, and have been sitting around for some of that. There is a Youtube video of 230010 at Stourbridge Jn on tests on the 5th June 2021. That is two years and a couple of weeks ago. 230006 and 007 ware recorded there in July 2020 - not even three years ago.
I have tried to give the Vivarail 230s a lot of lenience as a new technology, but after Vivarail's experience with 230001 and 2360003-005, I just don't think they will ever be able to offer a reliable and robust service. From what I can tell TfW have five units in the fleet - all between two and three years "fresh" out of their most significant overhaul in their lives, yet two in traffic and the failure standby cannot deliver even one week of robust service.
Not only that, batteries degrade over time, so if they cannot deliver the service now, there is no way they will still be running in ten years time. TfW need to do the decent thing for the people of Wales and the borders.
Nicholas Lewis
Established Member
Very interesting and the good thing about the various train operators moving away from DfT control is that we are getting to see the detail behind the numbers and the issues that are never exposed to proper scrutiny.
What proper scrutiny? WG\TfW have spent £30m so far on five lemon trains where is the scrutiny of the procurement process or the decision to buy them outright?
Dai Corner
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This paragraph in the letter from TfW to the committee seems at odds with what we've read in this thread
Xenophon PCDGS
Veteran Member
Obviously written by someone with no actual operational knowledge of what has happened over the last months, but well versed in "politician-speech".
CaergwrleKen
Member
230010 failed today about midday, no 230 to replace it so the 150 is keeping a 2 hourly service going
Nicholas Lewis
Established Member
Granted the decision on procurement looks extremely poor value compared to just leasing more 197's but decisions on awarding contracts by public bodies never get any scrutiny before award generally as executives are empowered to just let the contracts as long as they follow due process. My point about scrutiny is that TfW have been forced to expose the detail you will never see the high level number for a DfT run contract let alone the specific detail we have here.
No such figures have ever been revealed in front of the UK Transport Select Committee or Public Accounts Committee? I don't have examples but I find it unlikely and how have TfW been forced? The Welsh PAC sent them a letter and James Price replied and happened to be more open then some DfT mandarins might be. The letter wasn't really honest about the performance of the 230s either.
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