Class 345 progress

samuelmorris

Established Member
Joined
18 Jul 2013
Messages
4,667
Location
Brentwood, Essex
Updated MTIN chart for Aventras as of July's Modern Railways Mag data:


The 7-car 345 data is very up and down but seems to average around 7000, so by approximation, similar to the pairs of 315s they replaced. Borderline acceptable for Crossrail services but should really be better to avoid routine disruption due to train faults. Bombardier's own S stock units, more intensively worked, achieve almost 10x these numbers. Fair that any non-critical software defects on the 7-car are being left as is so that the 9-car units can be made ready for use, but that's not something that would be affecting the 710s, supposedly now having matured after getting over the issues they experienced initially, and indeed, indicate what reliability can be expected of subsequent Aventra fleets.

The 710s seem to have 'settled' around the 2000 mark, very much bottom of the pile for EMUs and that includes the troubled 331s and 755s. Quite why this is the case isn't clear. At almost a year into service, it's a score lower than the 'first of their kind' 345s were achieving in 2018, and indeed their better-performing (although still unacceptably unreliable) competitors from CAF and Stadler have been in service for a similarly short period of time if not less. I would really have expected to see at least some signs of improvement by now.
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

87015

Established Member
Joined
3 Mar 2006
Messages
4,470
Location
GEML/WCML/SR
Updated MTIN chart for Aventras as of July's Modern Railways Mag data:


The 7-car 345 data is very up and down but seems to average around 7000, so by approximation, similar to the pairs of 315s they replaced. Borderline acceptable for Crossrail services but should really be better to avoid routine disruption due to train faults. Bombardier's own S stock units, more intensively worked, achieve almost 10x these numbers. Fair that any non-critical software defects on the 7-car are being left as is so that the 9-car units can be made ready for use, but that's not something that would be affecting the 710s, supposedly now having matured after getting over the issues they experienced initially, and indeed, indicate what reliability can be expected of subsequent Aventra fleets.

The 710s seem to have 'settled' around the 2000 mark, very much bottom of the pile for EMUs and that includes the troubled 331s and 755s. Quite why this is the case isn't clear. At almost a year into service, it's a score lower than the 'first of their kind' 345s were achieving in 2018, and indeed their better-performing (although still unacceptably unreliable) competitors from CAF and Stadler have been in service for a similarly short period of time if not less. I would really have expected to see at least some signs of improvement by now.
710 MTIN is so low by comparison largely because they just don't (can't on the routes) do any mileage in comparison to things like 755s. The measure is very flawed. They are far from reliable, but looking at MTIN is not really sensible. That team don't tend to move delays elsewhere for PR either.
 

samuelmorris

Established Member
Joined
18 Jul 2013
Messages
4,667
Location
Brentwood, Essex
710 MTIN is so low largely because they just don't (can't on the routes) do any mileage in comparison to things like 755s. The measure is very flawed. They are far from reliable, but looking at MTIN is not really sensible. That team don't tend to move delays elsewhere for PR either.
Compared to 755s yes (Also bear in mind the 755s' diesel mode has a lot to do with their failures). Compared to 345s? Not really. For trains not subject to the complicated test regime of the Crossrail units, a year in service should be enough to do better. The 710s' current performance is a quarter of that of the old 317s on the same routes, let alone the 315s.
 

87015

Established Member
Joined
3 Mar 2006
Messages
4,470
Location
GEML/WCML/SR
Compared to 755s yes (Also bear in mind the 755s' diesel mode has a lot to do with their failures). Compared to 345s? Not really. For trains not subject to the complicated test regime of the Crossrail units, a year in service should be enough to do better. The 710s' current performance is a quarter of that of the old 317s on the same routes, let alone the 315s.
345s (and 315/317) use(d) platform dispatch equipment don't they?

There are far more 345 diagrams, so mileage is much higher. Each fault then shows a greater drop on a 710 than the same would on a 345.
 

samuelmorris

Established Member
Joined
18 Jul 2013
Messages
4,667
Location
Brentwood, Essex
345s (and 315/317) use(d) platform dispatch equipment don't they?

There are far more 345 diagrams, so mileage is much higher. Each fault then shows a greater drop on a 710 than the same would on a 345.
Are there? Perhaps I've not been keeping up. I was under the impression there were 6 diagrams for Goblin and 6 for WA (so 12 total) and only around a similar number on the GEML - more in total of course but some were still covered by 315s prior to lockdown and given some 7-car units have been surrendered to operate from Paddington, I imagine that's still the case.
 

Domh245

Established Member
Joined
6 Apr 2013
Messages
6,112
Location
nowhere
345s (and 315/317) use(d) platform dispatch equipment don't they?
Is that implying that the 710s are having a lot of issues with their onboard dispatch cameras/monitors? Whilst the 345s are platform dispatch equipment, the images from the camera on the platform are transmitted onto the train and monitored in the cab, which I would have thought is more complicated than a direct feed from cameras onboard the train!
 

cactustwirly

Established Member
Joined
10 Apr 2013
Messages
5,857
Location
UK
Updated MTIN chart for Aventras as of July's Modern Railways Mag data:


The 7-car 345 data is very up and down but seems to average around 7000, so by approximation, similar to the pairs of 315s they replaced. Borderline acceptable for Crossrail services but should really be better to avoid routine disruption due to train faults. Bombardier's own S stock units, more intensively worked, achieve almost 10x these numbers. Fair that any non-critical software defects on the 7-car are being left as is so that the 9-car units can be made ready for use, but that's not something that would be affecting the 710s, supposedly now having matured after getting over the issues they experienced initially, and indeed, indicate what reliability can be expected of subsequent Aventra fleets.

The 710s seem to have 'settled' around the 2000 mark, very much bottom of the pile for EMUs and that includes the troubled 331s and 755s. Quite why this is the case isn't clear. At almost a year into service, it's a score lower than the 'first of their kind' 345s were achieving in 2018, and indeed their better-performing (although still unacceptably unreliable) competitors from CAF and Stadler have been in service for a similarly short period of time if not less. I would really have expected to see at least some signs of improvement by now.
What's the MTIN of the 700/717 fleet?
 

cactustwirly

Established Member
Joined
10 Apr 2013
Messages
5,857
Location
UK
Are there? Perhaps I've not been keeping up. I was under the impression there were 6 diagrams for Goblin and 6 for WA (so 12 total) and only around a similar number on the GEML - more in total of course but some were still covered by 315s prior to lockdown and given some 7-car units have been surrendered to operate from Paddington, I imagine that's still the case.
There are also about 9? diagrams on the west side.
 

JN114

Established Member
Joined
28 Jun 2005
Messages
2,464
I wonder will we see ERTMS 387s in service to Heathrow before 345s? I gather they've got a testing run shortly.
Unlikely - AFAIK there’s only been some limited train-the-trainer training of ETCS on GWR/HEX so far - nowhere near the level of driver knowledge we’d want before entry into service. As I understand from posters upthread MTREL are turn-key ready to go as soon as the 9-345s come back.

The recent testing of our 387s has been conducted by the test trains division of one of the FOCs.
 

JonathanH

Established Member
Joined
29 May 2011
Messages
5,224
There are also about 9? diagrams on the west side.
Arguably 14 diagrams but it can be run with 11 - 2 to Hayes and 9 to Reading.

The units which go into the depot on 5Y11/5Y12 don't necessarily come back out on 5R52/5R56. Similarly, the units on 5Y13/5Y14 don't necessarily come out on 5R92/5R96 - the point being that because six units spend the night at Maidenhead and only three start at Old Oak, the diagramming allows the units to be swapped at Old Oak during the day.

There is also a 'hot spare' diagram which works 5G70/5G71 empty to Maidenhead Carriage Sidings for the morning peak and 5G72/5G73 to Portobello Carriage Road for the evening peak.
 

JonathanH

Established Member
Joined
29 May 2011
Messages
5,224
It appears that overnight testing to Hayes and Reading ran last night so perhaps this is the first move towards the return of 9-car units. (Note that I am guessing that this is a 9-car because it would appear pointless doing this move with a in service 7-car unit).

2316 Old Oak Depot to London Paddington
https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/C25984/2020-07-13/detailed
2336 London Paddington to Hayes & Harlington
https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/C25985/2020-07-13/detailed
0025 Hayes & Harlington to London Paddington
https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/C25986/2020-07-14/detailed
0052 London Paddington to Reading
https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/C25987/2020-07-14/detailed
0154 Reading to London Paddington
https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/C25988/2020-07-14/detailed
0247 London Paddington to Reading
https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/C25989/2020-07-14/detailed
0416 Reading to London Paddington
https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/C25990/2020-07-14/detailed
0508 London Paddington to Old Oak Depot
https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/C25991/2020-07-14/detailed

The last two trains ran over an hour early.
 
Last edited:

JN114

Established Member
Joined
28 Jun 2005
Messages
2,464
None of them are consisted so can’t help I’m afraid, I concur that for that amount of running 9 car would be logical
 

JonathanH

Established Member
Joined
29 May 2011
Messages
5,224
The early ones have been activated for tonight/early morning.
Activation of most schedules is automatic - 5G50 / 5G56 / 5G54 / 5G60 all activated two hours before their departure time today but none ran.
https://trackit.uppyjc.co.uk/TrackI...rue&Estimate=False&Headcode=&TOC=&Orig=&Dest=

Probably need to watch for the movement after 11pm to see it actually appear (which indeed at 2316 it has). Slough pass just after 1am.

Looks like 345068 did the overnight runs.
 
Last edited:

JonathanH

Established Member
Joined
29 May 2011
Messages
5,224
A class 345 appears to have run empty this evening to Heathow for testing - in each case the reversal is at Airport Junction

1944 Old Oak Depot to Heathrow Airport Terminal 4
https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/K10566/2020-07-16/detailed
2103 Heathrow Airport Terminal 4 to Heathrow Airport Terminal 4
https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/K10567/2020-07-16/detailed
2133 Heathrow Airport Terminal 4 to Heathrow Airport Terminal 4
https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/K10568/2020-07-16/detailed
2203 Heathrow Airport Terminal 4 to Heathrow Airport Terminal 4
https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/K10569/2020-07-16/detailed
2233 Heathrow Airport Terminal 4 to Heathrow Airport Terminal 4
https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/K10570/2020-07-16/detailed
2303 Heathrow Airport Terminal 4 to Heathrow Airport Terminal 4
https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/K10571/2020-07-16/detailed
2333 Heathrow Airport Terminal 4 to Heathrow Airport Terminal 4
https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/K10572/2020-07-16/detailed
0003 Heathrow Airport Terminal 4 to Old Oak Depot
https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/K10573/2020-07-17/detailed

Looks like the same schedules are in place for tomorrow night as well.

No daytime runs to Reading appear to have run yet but presumably it must be getting closer.
 

JonathanH

Established Member
Joined
29 May 2011
Messages
5,224
Test running to Heathrow again tonight on the same schedule as last night.

The overnight trips to Reading from earlier in the week didn't run last night.
 

rebmcr

Established Member
Joined
15 Nov 2011
Messages
3,218
Location
Cambridge
Test running to Heathrow again tonight on the same schedule as last night.

The overnight trips to Reading from earlier in the week didn't run last night.
(The following is pure speculation on my part)

Sounds like they might have validated the AWS fix, and could be taking advantage of the testing schedule to progress more quickly with ETCS...
 

JonathanH

Established Member
Joined
29 May 2011
Messages
5,224
(The following is pure speculation on my part)

Sounds like they might have validated the AWS fix, and could be taking advantage of the testing schedule to progress more quickly with ETCS...
Sounds like they have a candidate fix for the software and are testing it. There still haven't been any daytime mainline test runs to Reading (or indeed anywhere else), only late evening / nighttime running using one specific unit.

It looks like 345068 has been the specific test unit for this week's operations (thanks to TrackIt and whoever it is who is in charge of the signalling and allows the 5Ixx headcode to appear when the unit gets back to Old Oak Depot).
 

JonathanH

Established Member
Joined
29 May 2011
Messages
5,224
Last edited:

JonathanH

Established Member
Joined
29 May 2011
Messages
5,224
Has there been any news regarding the 9 Cars.
345068 continues on evening test runs to Heathrow Airport. There has been a bit of activity around Old Oak Depot with 9-car units proceeding to signal berths 0142 and 0158 showing on the live data feeds (which I think either means they have been passing through the washer or moving from sidings to the depot).

On 7-cars, 345022 and 345064 seem to be a bit troublesome at the moment.
 

JonathanH

Established Member
Joined
29 May 2011
Messages
5,224
Don't hold me to this, but you may see them in passenger service to Heathrow within the next 7 days or so.
Is that some sort of contractual fix?

Logic might suggest 9-car 345s working Hayes shuttles first unless there was some need to start seeing off the 360s before the start of August.
 

Top