Class 345 progress

[iphone76]

Problems with signalling and trains I believe today. Think it is being scaled down to 6tph as some trains have returned depots whilst some continue in the central operating system to try and piece it back together.

 

[43096]

Problems with signalling and trains I believe today. Think it is being scaled down to 6tph as some trains have returned depots whilst some continue in the central operating system to try and piece it back together.

Sounds like a good test of how to deal with service disruption, which is inevitable sooner or later after the service starts.

 

[ChrisHogan]

345s on Heathrow diagrams have been terminating at West Drayton platform 5 this evening due to a signal fault at Heathrow. I believe this is the first time that platform has been used in passenger service.

Second time at least. It was used once before in 2020 on a Saturday when there was a fatality at Slough.

 

[swt_passenger]

345s on Heathrow diagrams have been terminating at West Drayton platform 5 this evening due to a signal fault at Heathrow. I believe this is the first time that platform has been used in passenger service.

Back in the early timetable plans, West Drayton P5 would have become the normal up relief through platform, with P4 the reversing platform for I think at least 2 tph offpeak?

Does anyone know if any track and signalling alterations to allow that method of working were ever done, as it must presumably have been part of of the Crossrail Act?

 

[kevin_roche]

Back in the early timetable plans, West Drayton P5 would have become the normal up relief through platform, with P4 the reversing platform for I think at least 2 tph offpeak?

Does anyone know if any track and signalling alterations to allow that method of working were ever done, as it must presumably have been part of of the Crossrail Act?

I believe that the introduction of ETCS between Heathrow and Paddington will include West Drayton. Not sure if there is anything special about the reversing platform though.

 

[Bigbru]

I believe that the introduction of ETCS between Heathrow and Paddington will include West Drayton. Not sure if there is anything special about the reversing platform though.

ETCS will be from Ealing Broadway to Stockley Junction from Sept. Not sure about the step after this.

 

[ChrisHogan]

Back in the early timetable plans, West Drayton P5 would have become the normal up relief through platform, with P4 the reversing platform for I think at least 2 tph offpeak?

Does anyone know if any track and signalling alterations to allow that method of working were ever done, as it must presumably have been part of of the Crossrail Act?

The connections to the West Drayton Loop at each end and through platform 5 are all 40 mph but using it as the Up Relief would impose a significant time penalty over running through platform 4 with its linespeed of 60/MU90 for non-stopping trains (principally freight but some GW 387s that run non-stop from Slough in the peaks). I don't know whether signal 472 on the URL is approach controlled.

 

[JN114]

The connections to the West Drayton Loop at each end and through platform 5 are all 40 mph but using it as the Up Relief would impose a significant time penalty over running through platform 4 with its linespeed of 60/MU90 for non-stopping trains (principally freight but some GW 387s that run non-stop from Slough in the peaks). I don't know whether signal 472 on the URL is approach controlled.

T472 'A' route (to West Drayton Loop) is approach controlled to red.

Using 5 as the "Up Relief" with a train turning round in 4 would be prohibitively disruptive, the trackwork geometry needed both for the junctions at the West End; and the formation through Platform 5 don't really allow for anything much faster.

As such, the approach in the down direction to Platform 5 has been laid out such to maximise entry speed into the platform, with Flashing Aspects for the turnout into the loop platform in the Down Direction and relatively high speed crossovers.

 

[swt_passenger]

T472 'A' route (to West Drayton Loop) is approach controlled to red.

Using 5 as the "Up Relief" with a train turning round in 4 would be prohibitively disruptive, the trackwork geometry needed both for the junctions at the West End; and the formation through Platform 5 don't really allow for anything much faster.

As such, the approach in the down direction to Platform 5 has been laid out such to maximise entry speed into the platform, with Flashing Aspects for the turnout into the loop platform in the Down Direction and relatively high speed crossovers.

You’ve probably confirmed then, that the 2010 intended track layout drawing I have would have needed significant changes to layout, and they must have been abandoned at some point.

 

[kevin_roche]

After a dodgy morning with trial running, it seems they took a break and are having a better time this afternoon. https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/se...21-07-13/0000-2359?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt

 

[Gulf1159]

Any idea how long or when the ELR100 signaling software update is due/planned?

 

[kevin_roche]

Any idea how long or when the ELR100 signaling software update is due/planned?

I believe there is another blockade planned during the Autumn and it is hoped that it will be installed at that time.

From the papers for Thursday's Elizabeth line committee, I think it isn't completely clear:

the ELR100 software release, the train and signalling software that will be used for passenger service,is ready as a product. Siemens is still required to complete the engineering phase of the software and the complex task of integrating it onto the railway.
Once the software is ready to be commissioned, a further blockade, planned for the autumn, will take place to complete any elements of outstanding works on the tunnels;

 

[JonathanH]

7-car unit 345009 appears to have been dragged via the North London Line to Old Oak Depot yesterday

https://twitter.com/wallygridboy/status/1415430672697774084

Crossrail on the North London Line with #ClassicTraction 37611 transferring 345009 on the 1658 Ilford Depot-Old Oak Depot passing Camden Road.

1658 Ilford E.M.U.D. to Old Oak Depot
https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:K02101/2021-07-14/detailed

On another point, note that Trial Running isn't scheduled today. Instead, two 345s went into the tunnel on 5T10 0547 Old Oak Depot to Westbourne Park Cs and 5T11 0609 Old Oak Depot to Westbourne Park Cs returning around lunchtime.

 

[iphone76]

Trial running starts again on Monday. Certainly no drivers from my depot are booked on trail running jobs until then. More dynamic testing is taking place I have been told.

 

[JonathanH]

More dynamic testing is taking place I have been told.

Yes, looks like the usual pairing of 345037 and 345041 that are held back for this sort of thing.


[Picture shows a screen shot of output from TrackIt! with headcodes '5I37' and '5I41' reported cancelled at berth C311 having returned from Westbourne Park on 5Y70 1225 Westbourne Park to Old Oak Depot and 5Y71 1240 Westbourne Park to Old Oak Depot around 1235 on 15 July]

I note that the Old Oak Depot to Gidea Park stock movement for east side 9-car transfer takes place during 'lunchtime' in the dynamic testing.

More important news appears to be the use of 345045 on east side services today - shown returning on 5Y99 to Old Oak Depot.

[Picture shows a screen shot of output from TrackIt! with headcodes '5I45' and '5I41' reported cancelled at berth C311 having returned from Gidea Park on 5Y99 1859 Gidea Park C.H.S. to Old Oak Depot around 2020 on 15 July]

EDIT: 345045 now reported elsewhere as working west side today (16/07).

 

[Gulf1159]

Yes, 345048 has been in passenger service for a few weeks - first reported on 16 June but likely to be in use a few days before. 345025 has been in use quite a bit this week - the remaining numbers on the bingo card are, as far as I can tell, 345001/18/19/24/32/33/41/45/50/67/69.

345032/050/069 are fitted with on train cameras and monitoring equipment for testing purposes.

 

[JonathanH]

345033 reported elsewhere as being in service west side today.

EDIT: Two days later

[Picture shows a screen shot of output from TrackIt! with headcodes '5I33' reported cancelled at berth C313 having returned from Paddington on 5Y25 1928 London Paddington to Old Oak Depot around 1930 on 19 July]

 

[Siemens Staines]

345024 9P24 0752 Reading - Paddington today which was still on the bingo card.

345027 9R26 0758 Paddington - Reading. 027 was one of those that worked in the very early days of 9-cars on the West side, but I am not sure whether it has been on Readings much before?

 

[Gulf1159]

Any idea how long or when the ELR100 signaling software update is due/planned?

the ELR100 blockade is in October and will be for two weeks

 

[Horizon22]

ETCS will be from Ealing Broadway to Stockley Junction from Sept. Not sure about the step after this.

Its Ealing Broadway to Paddington (Mainline) as the final Stage 'C', but no confirmed timeline. The Stage 'B' has already been delayed.

 

[kevin_roche]

Its Ealing Broadway to Paddington (Mainline) as the final Stage 'C', but no confirmed timeline. The Stage 'B' has already been delayed.

I saw an IRSE presentation, which I think was last year following the installation and testing of ETCS Stage 'B'. I was thinking it was unlikely to be useful until after Stage 'C' was complete. I guess turning it on now would mean that 345s going to Reading from Paddington High Level would switch from TPWS to ETCS and then back to TPWS. I guess that could mean more chances of causing a problem until the 345 software is working properly. Does anyone know if that was the reason was that Stage 'B' has not been turned on?

 

[JN114]

Does anyone know if that was the reason was that Stage 'B' has not been turned on?

At the moment GWR/HEx aren’t able to support Stage B switch on as it requires either

1) HEx drivers to route learn to Slough

or

2) GWR drivers to traction learn ETCS

1 is the more likely option, but it’s unlikely to be sorted by September.

Without either the Heathrow 387s won’t be able to go back to Reading for maintenance.

 

[JonathanH]

A move between Old Oak Depot and Ilford around the North London Line today - 37608 working it.
1026 Old Oak Depot to Ilford E.M.U.D. https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:K01012/2021-07-21/detailed
1658 Ilford E.M.U.D. to Old Oak Depot https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:K02101/2021-07-21/detailed

I assume the eastbound move was 345009 as there wouldn't appear to be anything else to move that can't make its own way through the tunnel. The return working is harder to guess but has been reported elsewhere as 345011.

 

[rebmcr]

I saw an IRSE presentation, which I think was last year following the installation and testing of ETCS Stage 'B'. I was thinking it was unlikely to be useful until after Stage 'C' was complete. I guess turning it on now would mean that 345s going to Reading from Paddington High Level would switch from TPWS to ETCS and then back to TPWS. I guess that could mean more chances of causing a problem until the 345 software is working properly. Does anyone know if that was the reason was that Stage 'B' has not been turned on?

At the moment GWR/HEx aren’t able to support Stage B switch on as it requires either

1) HEx drivers to route learn to Slough

or

2) GWR drivers to traction learn ETCS

1 is the more likely option, but it’s unlikely to be sorted by September.

Without either the Heathrow 387s won’t be able to go back to Reading for maintenance.

Presumably the ETCS rollout on the GWML would be an overlay, to maintain compatibility with Freight, Class 165, etc.

Are the Class 387s prevented from using TPWS in an area with functioning ETCS?

 

[Horizon22]

Presumably the ETCS rollout on the GWML would be an overlay, to maintain compatibility with Freight, Class 165, etc.

Are the Class 387s prevented from using TPWS in an area with functioning ETCS?

There would be a difference here between GWR's regular fleet of 387s and the 387 HeX fleet which has the ETCS software installed.

 

[JN114]

Presumably the ETCS rollout on the GWML would be an overlay, to maintain compatibility with Freight, Class 165, etc.

Are the Class 387s prevented from using TPWS in an area with functioning ETCS?

Yes it is overlay, even on the Heathrow branch which is ETCS trains only nowadays.

The problem is there isn’t a choice - at least with how the trains are setup at the moment - the train will run on whatever safety system is present and the only way to get around that would be to isolate ETCS for the moves to/from Reading; then we’re into the same territory within the Swiss cheese model as the Southall crash - isolating safety systems because it’s inconvenient to run with them.

 

[Gulf1159]

A move between Old Oak Depot and Ilford around the North London Line today - 37608 working it.
1026 Old Oak Depot to Ilford E.M.U.D. https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:K01012/2021-07-21/detailed
1658 Ilford E.M.U.D. to Old Oak Depot https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:K02101/2021-07-21/detailed

I assume the eastbound move was 345009 as there wouldn't appear to be anything else to move that can't make its own way through the tunnel. The return working is harder to guess but has been reported elsewhere as 345011.

Yes 345009 and 345011 were the two 345’s involved in the swap

 

[kevin_roche]

Presumably the ETCS rollout on the GWML would be an overlay, to maintain compatibility with Freight, Class 165, etc.

Are the Class 387s prevented from using TPWS in an area with functioning ETCS?

Assuming that ETCS is in control the driver should be offered a choice of possible modes of operation on the part of the GWML which has been enabled with ETCS, one is ETCS L2 (the default) and the other would be NTC TPWS. I have no idea what the rules are for choosing NTC TPWS, but would assume that would only be a valid choice if there was a fault in the ETCS Signalling system.

When a 345 enters the central section I believe the choices are NTC CBTC and ETCS L0. Again the second choice would only be likely to be made if CBTC failed.

 

[adrock1976]

Assuming that ETCS is in control the driver should be offered a choice of possible modes of operation on the part of the GWML which has been enabled with ETCS, one is ETCS L2 (the default) and the other would be NTC TPWS. I have no idea what the rules are for choosing NTC TPWS, but would assume that would only be a valid choice if there was a fault in the ETCS Signalling system.

When a 345 enters the central section I believe the choices are NTC CBTC and ETCS L0. Again the second choice would only be likely to be made if CBTC failed.

I'm aware that it is not your intention to indulge in a lot of alphabet soup in supplying excellent updates, but could it be kindly explained what NTC CBTC, ETCS L0, and ETCS L2 are please?

 

[Horizon22]

I'm aware that it is not your intention to indulge in a lot of alphabet soup in supplying excellent updates, but could it be kindly explained what NTC CBTC, ETCS L0, and ETCS L2 are please?

ETCS = European Train Control System. L0 all the way to L3 are the various levels. Level 0 is wherby an ETCS train runs without using ETCS, Level 2 is primarily all cab-based. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Train_Control_System#Level_2

CBTC = Communications Based Train Control: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communications-based_train_control. NTC is National Train Control i.e normal signalling systems in the UK. (or in this case, the standard Crossrail signalling system)