Class 345 progress

[AM9]

But which is better? A 700 or a 345?

There's only one way to find out....

FIGHT!

As far as I'm concerned, for a journey on a main line say over 45mins, clearly a class 700, (all transverse seats, toilets, faster), for a journey suburban-core-suburban, either although probably class 345 for the time being as it would be a novelty and I've done class 700 through the core many times already.

 

[class387]

As far as I'm concerned, for a journey on a main line say over 45mins, clearly a class 700, (all transverse seats, toilets, faster), for a journey suburban-core-suburban, either although probably class 345 for the time being as it would be a novelty and I've done class 700 through the core many times already.

However, if you can find a transverse seat in a 345, it is definitely a more comfortable enviroment - seat spacers with armrests, a more supportive seat and better window alignment. There are also around the same amount of bays in a 345 car (first and last apart) as a 700. I have done 1hr 30min in both and definitely found the 345 more comfortable. I have also spent 40min in a longitudinal seat and found it no more uncomfortable than a 700 airline seat.

 

[samuelmorris]

Any insight into the fault with so many of these units that prevents them taking passengers at Liverpool Street? I've seen it twice and it looks like it happened again this evening. I'm trying to work out what's different about Liverpool Street than Stratford unless it's simply a measure to keep the load level down.

Don't confuse my comments about build quality for complaints regarding DfT spec issues. I know the layout of the 700 leaves a lot to be desired on that basis, but by comparison, even though they may have severe software issues, 700s have been in service a lot longer than 345s yet unlike 345s I haven't spotted any trim panels having fallen off.
At present the reliability of 700s is acceptable given how many units are now in service. Not wonderful, but tolerable, certainly when eclipsed by the other myriad of delays TL can suffer.

345 reliability on the other hand is currently frankly disgusting. It's no great surprise units aren't being introduced faster than they are, I'd be surprised if the MTIN in service is in even 4 figures. I hope they get to the bottom of those issues soon, the opening date of the core is approaching...

Also, had my first ride on a 387 for a while this morning. I remember when I first tried them (actually a 377/6 but as far as seating goes, the same) thinking how incredibly firm the seats were. "This'll take some getting used to".
Now being used to 345s I couldn't believe how soft they are. It really brings it home to me how firm the seats are on those units when units that used to be infamous for firm seats now seem soft and comfortable.

 

[mrmartin]

More delays due to failed train this evening. Another 345?

 

[Goldfish62]

Any insight into the fault with so many of these units that prevents them taking passengers at Liverpool Street? I've seen it twice and it looks like it happened again this evening. I'm trying to work out what's different about Liverpool Street than Stratford unless it's simply a measure to keep the load level down.

Don't confuse my comments about build quality for complaints regarding DfT spec issues. I know the layout of the 700 leaves a lot to be desired on that basis, but by comparison, even though they may have severe software issues, 700s have been in service a lot longer than 345s yet unlike 345s I haven't spotted any trim panels having fallen off.
At present the reliability of 700s is acceptable given how many units are now in service. Not wonderful, but tolerable, certainly when eclipsed by the other myriad of delays TL can suffer.

345 reliability on the other hand is currently frankly disgusting. It's no great surprise units aren't being introduced faster than they are, I'd be surprised if the MTIN in service is in even 4 figures. I hope they get to the bottom of those issues soon, the opening date of the core is approaching...

Also, had my first ride on a 387 for a while this morning. I remember when I first tried them (actually a 377/6 but as far as seating goes, the same) thinking how incredibly firm the seats were. "This'll take some getting used to".
Now being used to 345s I couldn't believe how soft they are. It really brings it home to me how firm the seats are on those units when units that used to be infamous for firm seats now seem soft and comfortable.

Yes, the seats on the 345s do feel like they've been sculpted out of granite. Surely we have reached "peak firmness" for train seats.

 

[samuelmorris]

Heh, until they return to using uncovered plastic seats then yes, I can't imagine it getting much worse!

 

[reddragon]

Yes, the seats on the 345s do feel like they've been sculpted out of granite. Surely we have reached "peak firmness" for train seats.

We probably have reached peak firmness as diamond seats would be too expensive.

The next step is to introduce textured seats, starting with mild roughness, working up through cobbled stone, and rough stone sets to eventually reach their goal of anti-trespass texture as found at platform ends. This then justifies standee only trains as nobody wants to sit down thus justifying their case!

 

[47802]

Heh, until they return to using uncovered plastic seats then yes, I can't imagine it getting much worse!

Well they have those on the New York Subway, so perhaps people should stop moaning about the seats.

 

[Goldfish62]

Well they have those on the New York Subway, so perhaps people should stop moaning about the seats.

So because seats are even worse elsewhere people have no right to complain about uncomfortable seats? Odd logic.

 

[samuelmorris]

Well they have those on the New York Subway, so perhaps people should stop moaning about the seats.

That's kind of my point. If we're now at the point where there is effectively no cushioning at all on train seats, why bother with the expense? Why not simply use the schoolchair-plastic style seating that suffices elsewhere in the world? I don't think I'd find that anywhere near as uncomfortable as the longitudinal seats on a 345.

 

[AM9]

... Don't confuse my comments about build quality for complaints regarding DfT spec issues. I know the layout of the 700 leaves a lot to be desired on that basis, but by comparison, even though they may have severe software issues, 700s have been in service a lot longer than 345s yet unlike 345s I haven't spotted any trim panels having fallen off.
At present the reliability of 700s is acceptable given how many units are now in service. Not wonderful, but tolerable, certainly when eclipsed by the other myriad of delays TL can suffer.

I think that software issues are set to be the bugbear of many new train classes, especially when they occur on passenger facing systems as with PIS equipment. Less than 2 years ago, the class 387s, almost new, needed a software update whist still in temporary Thameslink service. Problems with this resulted in loss of full service for a period. It seems that the main issue with the class 700s PIS equipment is their integration with other on-board and infrastructure data systems, so we might see more problems whilst they bed in following a) GN routes through the core and b) full ATO operation.

345 reliability on the other hand is currently frankly disgusting. It's no great surprise units aren't being introduced faster than they are, I'd be surprised if the MTIN in service is in even 4 figures. I hope they get to the bottom of those issues soon, the opening date of the core is approaching...

I agree that despite their comparatively easy duties so far, their performance doesn't engender confidence. With Crossrail being such a flagship project, any significant shortfall when running on suburban-core-suburban duties through the core will have instant political consequences, especially given the £15bn cost.

Also, had my first ride on a 387 for a while this morning. I remember when I first tried them (actually a 377/6 but as far as seating goes, the same) thinking how incredibly firm the seats were. "This'll take some getting used to".
Now being used to 345s I couldn't believe how soft they are. It really brings it home to me how firm the seats are on those units when units that used to be infamous for firm seats now seem soft and comfortable.

I think that most seats soften with use, so when comparing seats in brand new trains with those that have been in service for some time, there are bound to be differences. The only seats that don't seem to have 'mellowed' for me are the class 378 ones which being a layer of moquestte over a hard base, have nowhere to go. I do however find the class 700 seats fine for journeys from St Albans to Brighton especially given the posture that they promote.

 

[Wivenswold]

I think that software issues are set to be the bugbear of many new train classes, especially when they occur on passenger facing systems as with ****. Less than 2 years ago, the class 387s, almost new, needed a software update whist still in temporary Thameslink service. Problems with this resulted in loss of full service for a period. It seems that the main issue with the class 700s **** is their integration with other on-board and infrastructure data systems, so we might see more problems whilst they bed in following a) GN routes through the core and b) full ATO operation.

Agreed. As far back as 2003 the FGE Class 360 and their propensity to sit down on the GEML. Once sorted most new stock settles down in the end.

 

[samuelmorris]

I did wonder that about the seats softening with age, but this comparison was between 345006 which I gather has been in service for 6 months, and 387306, which has been in service only 2 return trips a day weekday only, for 14 months I believe? I wouldn't expect the amount of wear to differ dramatically between these two examples.

378 seats are firm, but nothing like as bad as 345s. 700 seats are not only firm but also uncomfortable to an extent due to the floorspace intrusion, but they still don't give me back issues like 345 seats. Perhaps I'll eventually get used to it.

 

[Wivenswold]

I've found that the higher 345 seats are comfortable if I adopt the gait of a crash-test dummy, blot upright. Now I like a slouch as much as the next man, but maybe that's the way to go.

 

[samuelmorris]

That's the posture I use as well but after 30+ mins of that it does my back no good at all

 

[AM9]

I did wonder that about the seats softening with age, but this comparison was between 345006 which I gather has been in service for 6 months, and 387306, which has been in service only 2 return trips a day weekday only, for 14 months I believe? I wouldn't expect the amount of wear to differ dramatically between these two examples.

378 seats are firm, but nothing like as bad as 345s. 700 seats are not only firm but also uncomfortable to an extent due to the floorspace intrusion, but they still don't give me back issues like 345 seats. Perhaps I'll eventually get used to it.

I've been on both 345 (30th June) & 378 (numerous times) in the last 7 months and ISTR that the 345s were a bit softer than the 378s. The 345 obviously had seen very few passengers. I need to check them both out again.

 

[samuelmorris]

I'm using 378s fairly regularly at the moment due to serving a new client near Stonebridge Park (so presumably that'll be 710s before long) and I can't say I find their seats anywhere near as hard as 345s.

Another faulty unit tonight by the looks of things, 1804 LST-SNF is a pair of 315s.

 

[KT530]

There was a 345 on test at Hayes & Harlington around midnight, 345019 I believe at a glance.

 

[Wivenswold]

I should know this but do we know what manufacturer and model the seats on the 345s are?

 

[gwr4090]

Is there any realistic possibility that (sufficient) 9-car Class 345s will be fully tested and commsissioned including the trackside and train borne ETCS in time to start the 4tph Paddington-Heathrow service in just four moths time ? There seems rather little progress evident so far. Also is Old Oak Common depot open yet ?

 

[D365]

Testing on the Great Western side is definitely in full swing. I haven’t heard anything to suggest any slippage in the dates.

 

[southern442]

I should know this but do we know what manufacturer and model the seats on the 345s are?

I believe the transverse seats are the ubiquitous Fainsa, although these seem to be fine and not causing as many complaints as the longitudinal seating. I'm not sure who manufactures that though.

 

[700007]

But which is better? A 700 or a 345?

There's only one way to find out....

FIGHT!

 

[700007]

As the name suggests, I much prefer 700s/707s (don't freak out, they're not my favourite trains!). As someone who [unfortunately] has to use the class 345 trains every day, they're very uncomfortable trains and the interior design does not bode well. Grey, black and purple? Really?

The seats, particularly the longitudinal ones, are very uncomfortable. Whilst yes, the transverse ones are slightly more comfortable due to their high back, if you sit in the seats closest to the aisle, chances are especially during the peak someone will bash you with a bag every few minutes due to the narrow width of the gangway. Surely Bombardier/TfL could've thought to lay it out more like the S8 stock on the London Underground where the transverse seats are 'scattered' throughout the carriage.

The 345s are very hot and uncomfortable, lack poles or hand grips, meaning that if you are standing (which is very likely given the very few seats they seem to have) on the trains, you're going to get squashed and feel like you will topple over especially for the Stratford to Ilford leg of the journey.

Features like the PIS, air-conditioning (never does) and tail lights from time to time do not work, with the speakers receiving a lot of feedback when the driver comes on or 'glitching' out when the automated announcement comes on. Lack of information of the 345s PIS as well.

Whilst the 700/707 PIS may not be in sync with each other by a few seconds, they do a much better job quite a lot of the time. It tells you the full calling pattern of where the train is going, the time, information about capacity (and toilets on the 700s) on the train and more importantly live service information on the TfL network (something which the 345s, a TfL train don't???).

I've always been a supporter of both Siemens and Bombardier (I particularly thought the S Stock was one of the most innovative trains Bombardier has made), but I'm not as hooked by the Aventra as I anticipated. I think this round has to go to Siemens Desiro City.

 

[dp21]

As the name suggests, I much prefer 700s/707s (don't freak out, they're not my favourite trains!). As someone who [unfortunately] has to use the class 345 trains every day, they're very uncomfortable trains and the interior design does not bode well. Grey, black and purple? Really?

The seats, particularly the longitudinal ones, are very uncomfortable. Whilst yes, the transverse ones are slightly more comfortable due to their high back, if you sit in the seats closest to the aisle, chances are especially during the peak someone will bash you with a bag every few minutes due to the narrow width of the gangway. Surely Bombardier/TfL could've thought to lay it out more like the S8 stock on the London Underground where the transverse seats are 'scattered' throughout the carriage.

The 345s are very hot and uncomfortable, lack poles or hand grips, meaning that if you are standing (which is very likely given the very few seats they seem to have) on the trains, you're going to get squashed and feel like you will topple over especially for the Stratford to Ilford leg of the journey.

Features like the PIS, air-conditioning (never does) and tail lights from time to time do not work, with the speakers receiving a lot of feedback when the driver comes on or 'glitching' out when the automated announcement comes on. Lack of information of the 345s PIS as well.

Whilst the 700/707 PIS may not be in sync with each other by a few seconds, they do a much better job quite a lot of the time. It tells you the full calling pattern of where the train is going, the time, information about capacity (and toilets on the 700s) on the train and more importantly live service information on the TfL network (something which the 345s, a TfL train don't???).

I've always been a supporter of both Siemens and Bombardier (I particularly thought the S Stock was one of the most innovative trains Bombardier has made), but I'm not as hooked by the Aventra as I anticipated. I think this round has to go to Siemens Desiro City.

You have to remember that the 345s are specified by TfL for TfL. What other TfL services dictate their entire calling pattern on the PIS? I can't speak for the Overground as I'm not 100% sure but definitely not on the tube. Additionally, the colour scheme was a TfL decision and, as such, is not representative of any other fleets so I'm not sure what you mean about not boding well?

You must have been very unfortunate not to have had the air conditioning working as I regularly travel on these units given I work in various locations on that line and have never had any issue with the air con.

I'll be curious to see how the 720s are specced to see whether this is a result of the Aventra as a product or the way in which the 345s are specified. Naturally the technical issues are to do with the product (but it's well known new trains always have teething problems) but the features you appear to dislike are most likely a specification issue.

 

[samuelmorris]

Being struck by passengers wandering through the train is an inevitable downside of through-gangwayed trains with transverse seating I'm afraid. At least with armrests there, you are slightly protected. It's annoying, but not something that can be used to criticise the 345s specifically, all such trains suffer that issue.
I can't say I've found the units hot and uncomfortable, I've generally found them quite cosy to be honest. If I manage to get a transverse seat I can sit back, get comfortable and doze off. Then have my bag stolen because there's no cover to stop people reaching under from behind, and no luggage racks :/
The latter is a policy I agree with, but it's only after this happened to me that I realised the flaw with the open underseat design.

The A/C demonstrably works, it's very noisy compared to that on a 700, but it does do a reasonable job when it's genuinely hot outside. It sounds to me like the temperature has just been set higher than you would like.

There are plenty of handrails, but they've left the tops unpainted for some reason, so within a couple of years they will probably start to rot.

It does sound to me like you (700007) will much prefer the Aventras used by other operators e.g. Greater Anglia and SWR.

 

[700007]

Being struck by passengers wandering through the train is an inevitable downside of through-gangwayed trains with transverse seating I'm afraid. At least with armrests there, you are slightly protected. It's annoying, but not something that can be used to criticise the 345s specifically, all such trains suffer that issue.
I can't say I've found the units hot and uncomfortable, I've generally found them quite cosy to be honest. If I manage to get a transverse seat I can sit back, get comfortable and doze off. Then have my bag stolen because there's no cover to stop people reaching under from behind, and no luggage racks :/
The latter is a policy I agree with, but it's only after this happened to me that I realised the flaw with the open underseat design.

The A/C demonstrably works, it's very noisy compared to that on a 700, but it does do a reasonable job when it's genuinely hot outside. It sounds to me like the temperature has just been set higher than you would like.

There are plenty of handrails, but they've left the tops unpainted for some reason, so within a couple of years they will probably start to rot.

It does sound to me like you (700007) will much prefer the Aventras used by other operators e.g. Greater Anglia and SWR.

Yes, I am definitely interested in seeing how the other Aventras turn out especially as alongside being local to TfL Rail, I do use GA on my commute and am a regular with SWR. I think the interior design of the GA ones will be top-notch. Their design team lately have been on fire in terms of making their trains look really nice.

I guess I'm stuck with the 'bad apple' of the batch for the meantime.

 

[Alfie1014]

Whilst yes, the transverse ones are slightly more comfortable due to their high back, if you sit in the seats closest to the aisle, chances are especially during the peak someone will bash you with a bag every few minutes due to the narrow width of the gangway.

I have to admit this is one of my concerns about of the 3+2 layout of the GA Aventras (I don't believe that the SWR and LM ones will be this configeration?). I'm also not sold on the feature of completely open layouts for longer distance trains. I agree that they are ideal for high capacity, high density metro services like Crossrail and Thameslink in the core and the Underground and Overground but on trains that will be on services of up to 90 minutes with longish stops between stations, will there be any opportunity for quiet(er) zones? And yes I know that they are massive people movers, but for much of the time time they wont be working in the peaks to London. As ever time will tell.

 

[samuelmorris]

I am quite impressed by what I've seen from Greater Anglia with regard to sensible spec of the units under the stipulations of the franchise (3+2 seating isn't something I necessarily agree with but it's necessary to achieve their obligations). I think the tip-up seats will prove useful, but cause more problems than they're worth and can see them being taken out at some point, but otherwise the 720s are shaping up nicely. For their other faults, the 345s are very quiet and smooth even sat above a powered bogie and that's in metro guise with no carpets. As long as the seating on the 720s is at most 387-hard rather than 345-hard, they should be really quite comfortable and pleasant units to travel in. Even things like the horrendous bang of the VCB Electrostars were infamous for if you sat under the pantograph has been dealt with on the Aventra. From a noise insulation, traction package noise (both the motors/gearing itself and the IGBT drive noise) and electrical noise (transformer and inverter noise) standpoint, the Aventra is a huge improvement on the Electrostar. It's a shame it's ruined a little bit by somewhat noisy air conditioning and, on the 345s at least, but I suspect all Aventras, headache-inducing door sounders.

 

[hwl]

I am quite impressed by what I've seen from Greater Anglia with regard to sensible spec of the units under the stipulations of the franchise (3+2 seating isn't something I necessarily agree with but it's necessary to achieve their obligations). I think the tip-up seats will prove useful, but cause more problems than they're worth and can see them being taken out at some point, but otherwise the 720s are shaping up nicely. For their other faults, the 345s are very quiet and smooth even sat above a powered bogie and that's in metro guise with no carpets. As long as the seating on the 720s is at most 387-hard rather than 345-hard, they should be really quite comfortable and pleasant units to travel in. Even things like the horrendous bang of the VCB Electrostars were infamous for if you sat under the pantograph has been dealt with on the Aventra. From a noise insulation, traction package noise (both the motors/gearing itself and the IGBT drive noise) and electrical noise (transformer and inverter noise) standpoint, the Aventra is a huge improvement on the Electrostar. It's a shame it's ruined a little bit by somewhat noisy air conditioning and, on the 345s at least, but I suspect all Aventras, headache-inducing door sounders.

The main reason the traction package noise is lower is that the traction motors have external blowers rather than shaft mounted cooling fans which are much quieter and also can provide maximum cooling at low TM speeds when the TMs are working less efficiently and generate more heat. It also allows more efficient regenerative braking.
One reason the aircon might be more noticable is that all the other noise has been cut (the other is that the Mitsubishi aircon is louder than the Liebherr on the electrostars.