Class 345 progress

[hwl]

As the through timetable in 10 days is only 22 tph rather than the full 24tph, there should be a few spare trains initially.

Also it is normal practice to size a fleet with maintenance spares, and as none have yet gone off for heavy maintenance / refurbishment the allowance for those would also be usable at current time.

Therefore having 2 or 3 out of service for lengthening prior to full timetable in May 2023 should not require 3 class 315 diagrams.

If cannot manage without the 315s now, how will a 9% frequency increase and refurbishment float be covered in the future?

The initial through timetable is huge inefficient with extra padding in the core tunnelled area and huge amount of padding west of Paddington hence the short term unit requirement is very high.
Long term the trains running west of Paddington will have a cycle time of ~15minutes less per out and back cycle from Abbey Wood.

 

[Ex31Rigger]

Latest 7 car lengthening plan has:

064 being worked on from 31/10/22 - 16/11/22

042 from 07/11/22 - 23/11/22

056 from 14/11/22 - 30/11/22

 

[Horizon22]

The initial through timetable is huge inefficient with extra padding in the core tunnelled area and huge amount of padding west of Paddington hence the short term unit requirement is very high.
Long term the trains running west of Paddington will have a cycle time of ~15minutes less per out and back cycle from Abbey Wood.

Indeed - translating the current timetable onto the through running timetable is OK for the Eastern side but awful for the Western side (the long dwells approaching Paddington). Reading and Heathrow also get a lot of turnaround time and, whilst this will remain in May 2023, it is likely to be to a lesser extent

 

[Peter Sarf]

Latest 7 car lengthening plan has:

064 being worked on from 31/10/22 - 16/11/22

042 from 07/11/22 - 23/11/22

056 from 14/11/22 - 30/11/22

Thanks for that, useful to know. (that I will be chilling at Westbourne Park and Bethnal Green).

 

[samuelmorris]

There seems to be a frustrating bug with the current PIS software that changes the train destination to Liverpool Street when passing Bow Junction eastbound. Is there a fix expected for that soon? It certainly causes some raised eyebrows!

 

[345 050]

Latest 7 car lengthening plan has:

064 being worked on from 31/10/22 - 16/11/22

042 from 07/11/22 - 23/11/22

056 from 14/11/22 - 30/11/22

Thanks for info. It was 042 and 056 again today. Hopefully that's not the last of 064 then...

 

[InOban]

Incidentally why does it take two weeks to lengthen each train? Splitting the set, adding the two vehicles, reprogramming the software, checking that software doesn't crash. To a layman, it sounds like an afternoon's work.

 

[adc82140]

Incidentally why does it take two weeks to lengthen each train? Splitting the set, adding the two vehicles, reprogramming the software, checking that software doesn't crash. To a layman, it sounds like an afternoon's work.

At a guess (and this really is a guess) does the rest of the set require heavy maintenance in order that all the carriages are on the same maintenance schedule?

 

[345 050]

Incidentally why does it take two weeks to lengthen each train? Splitting the set, adding the two vehicles, reprogramming the software, checking that software doesn't crash. To a layman, it sounds like an afternoon's work.

I think they do a number of test runs once the new software is installed.

 

[Snow1964]

Latest 7 car lengthening plan has:

064 being worked on from 31/10/22 - 16/11/22

042 from 07/11/22 - 23/11/22

056 from 14/11/22 - 30/11/22

Thank you for these dates

Wonder how long before the last unit (with 2 new cars) enters service. 30/11/22 is 1987 days (5 years, 5 months, 8 days) from first of fleet entering service.

Originally 65 units with 18 options, only 5 options were exercised (4 years 8 months ago) which makes it a fairly slow introduction.

 

[JonathanH]

Originally 65 units with 18 options, only 5 options were exercised (4 years 8 months ago) which makes it a fairly slow introduction.

It is hard to see how 13 extra units would have been employed. Without encouraging any speculation, is there any factual indication of what they would have been used for?

As you say, initial order was for 65, then 66 for Reading 2tph all day, then 70 to allow for Reading to be more frequent in the peak (4tph vs 2tph) and some other changes in the timetable https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...d-upminster-branch.233856/page-7#post-5757548.

 

[AlexNL]

Incidentally why does it take two weeks to lengthen each train? Splitting the set, adding the two vehicles, reprogramming the software, checking that software doesn't crash. To a layman, it sounds like an afternoon's work.

If memory serves me right, on the 7 car units the AWS/TPWS equipment is plugged directly into the train and the ETCS and CBTC stuff is completely disabled. With the 9 cars, the EVC* is in charge all the time and the AWS/TPWS feeds into that. That change probably needs a bunch of wiring changes, and extensive testing given that this is safety critical stuff.

* ETCS Vital Computer

 

[345 050]

It is hard to see how 13 extra units would have been employed. Without encouraging any speculation, is there any factual indication of what they would have been used for?

As you say, initial order was for 65, then 66 for Reading 2tph all day, then 70 to allow for Reading to be more frequent in the peak (4tph vs 2tph) and some other changes in the timetable https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...d-upminster-branch.233856/page-7#post-5757548.

30 tph might well require extra units, where this is all 13 Options tho...

 

[306024]

It is hard to see how 13 extra units would have been employed. Without encouraging any speculation, is there any factual indication of what they would have been used for?

As you say, initial order was for 65, then 66 for Reading 2tph all day, then 70 to allow for Reading to be more frequent in the peak (4tph vs 2tph) and some other changes in the timetable https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...d-upminster-branch.233856/page-7#post-5757548.

As I recall, the 65 units already included the peak Reading diagrams, 4tph to Heathrow T4, but nothing to T5. The extra 5 units were one for Reading off peak, three for 2tph to Heathrow T5, and one maintenance.

30 tph might well require extra units, where this is all 13 Options tho...

30tph would certainly require many more units.

 

[hwl]

30 tph might well require extra units, where this is all 13 Options tho...

the extra 6tph to get to 30tph would just be Abbey Wood (- Paddington) - Old Oak Common hence the balance of 8 from the 13 options would have been about bare minimum to do this, but the timetable and utilisation overall might have improved slightly to add this as well.

 

[345 050]

345 042 was out this morning.

Any evidence that 345 064 is being extended yet?

 

[Sunil_P]

Apologies if already mentioned, given they entered squadron service back in 2017, but the 345s lack a door open button on the inside actually on the doors themselves (like they do on the outside). The very similar 710s do have door-mounted buttons on both inside and out.

 

[800001]

Apologies if already mentioned, given they entered squadron service back in 2017, but the 345s lack a door open button on the inside actually on the doors themselves (like they do on the outside). The very similar 710s do have door-mounted buttons on both inside and out.

But they still have a button inside at each door………

 

[Sunil_P]

But they still have a button inside at each door………

What I meant was, on a crowded train, people will (no fault of their own) obstruct access to the side buttons. It's a design flaw. The 710s have corrected this. This is a 710 below:

 

[Roast Veg]

What I meant was, on a crowded train, people will (no fault of their own) obstruct access to the side buttons. It's a design flaw. The 710s have corrected this. This is a 710 below:

This is a problem principally where the buttons are only on one side of the door, where the buttons are too low down, or some combination of both. If you put the buttons high enough on either side of the doors, then there really isn't much of an issue.

 

[Mikey C]

This is a problem principally where the buttons are only on one side of the door, where the buttons are too low down, or some combination of both. If you put the buttons high enough on either side of the doors, then there really isn't much of an issue.

Don't buttons have to be low down so that wheelchair users etc can reach them?

 

[Roast Veg]

Don't buttons have to be low down so that wheelchair users etc can reach them?

I'm sure they do.

 

[adrock1976]

Was any consideration given to designing the doors without buttons meaning that the driver opens and closes them (like on London Underground)?

After all, these trains are extremely unlikely to be used on Rannoch Moor, Mount Snowdon etc.

NB: This is not intended to be a DOO question - I am merely asking regarding the design process.

 

[kevin_roche]

Was any consideration given to designing the doors without buttons meaning that the driver opens and closes them (like on London Underground)?

After all, these trains are extremely unlikely to be used on Rannoch Moor, Mount Snowdon etc.

NB: This is not intended to be a DOO question - I am merely asking regarding the design process.

When I travelled recently on the Elizabeth line I noticed that in the underground stations the doors do open autmatically when the driver releases them. On stations outside they have to be opened by passengers pressing the button. As they are air conditioned I seem to remember from the TV programs that this was done to save energy when the outside temperature is different from that set for the air conditioning. There was an episode on the train design which I will post the link for later if I can find it.

 

[Mikey C]

When I travelled recently on the Elizabeth line I noticed that in the underground stations the doors do open autmatically when the driver releases them. On stations outside they have to be opened by passengers pressing the button. As they are air conditioned I seem to remember from the TV programs that this was done to save energy when the outside temperature is different from that set for the air conditioning. There was an episode on the train design which I will post the link for later if I can find it.

The Thameslink train doors also automatically open in the "core", to save time presumably.

 

[AlexNL]

On Elizabeth Line Core, the trains are driven automatically. Door release is also done automatically as soon as the train is stopped, to reduce the dwell time as much as possible.

On Thameslink Core the same is possible, although as far as I'm aware TL trains do not yet drive fully automatically as not all staff is trained for it yet. (That might have changed by now?)

 

[adrock1976]

When I travelled recently on the Elizabeth line I noticed that in the underground stations the doors do open autmatically when the driver releases them. On stations outside they have to be opened by passengers pressing the button. As they are air conditioned I seem to remember from the TV programs that this was done to save energy when the outside temperature is different from that set for the air conditioning. There was an episode on the train design which I will post the link for later if I can find it.

The Thameslink train doors also automatically open in the "core", to save time presumably.

On Elizabeth Line Core, the trains are driven automatically. Door release is also done automatically as soon as the train is stopped, to reduce the dwell time as much as possible.

On Thameslink Core the same is possible, although as far as I'm aware TL trains do not yet drive fully automatically as not all staff is trained for it yet. (That might have changed by now?)

Many thanks to all.

My question has been answered satisfactorily, and I am happy to leave the discussion on door opening here before any red text appears from the mods.

 

[Peter Sarf]

On Elizabeth Line Core, the trains are driven automatically. Door release is also done automatically as soon as the train is stopped, to reduce the dwell time as much as possible.

On Thameslink Core the same is possible, although as far as I'm aware TL trains do not yet drive fully automatically as not all staff is trained for it yet. (That might have changed by now?)

My bold - oh the irony .

But yes both Elizabeth Line and Thameslink cores are done with all doors opening (at each station, on one side).

 

[345 050]

This is a really silly question, but are there any services that will operate from PAD high level with the 7-car 345s next week? Or are these trains not going to be back in service until they have been extended ?

 

[JN114]

This is a really silly question, but are there any services that will operate from PAD high level with the 7-car 345s next week? Or are these trains not going to be back in service until they have been extended ?

I don’t think there’s any self-contained; no sewer work for them to do anymore - so I expect they’ll be temporarily withdrawn for embiggening