Class 373 Eurostar withdrawals

[USRailFan]

World, or European?
The PSE TGVs must be remarkable then. The ICE1s not bad too.

When these trainsets were built, they were expected to last 15-25 years. The ICE-1s are now approaching 30 with the TGV PSE fast approaching 40
Didn't BR expect the HSTs to be in service for around 25 years originally? I guess many of them will reach 45, some perhaps even 50?

 

[Peter Mugridge]

There are not very many of the original TGVs ( the PSE batch ) left now; only a small number have had the life extension overhauls.

 

[USRailFan]

There are not very many of the original TGVs ( the PSE batch ) left now; only a small number have had the life extension overhauls.

I know, but considering that the fleet was apparently only supposed to last for 20-25 years it's still far longer than was envisioned originally.

 

[Marklund]

There are not very many of the original TGVs ( the PSE batch ) left now; only a small number have had the life extension overhauls.

They, and the ICE1s have lasted much longer than the quoted "norm" though.

So what is the European norm?
Comparing European practice with Japan is ludicrous.

 

[USRailFan]

Since high speed trains weren't put into service until around 1980 (TGV PSE) it's a bit difficult to speak of a "norm". For conventional stock - anything from 30 to 60 years, it seems. I guess a rough "norm" might be: About 30-35 years for diesel locos and DMUs, 40-50 years for passenger cars, 25-30 years for commuter EMUs, 30-40 years for other EMUs, anything from 35-60 years for electric locos.

 

[Marklund]

Since high speed trains weren't put into service until around 1980 (TGV PSE) it's a bit difficult to speak of a "norm".

Yet many times we've been told this is the norm for very high speed trains, but there's no evidence (in European practice) of it being true.

 

[MarkyT]

Looking (ludicrously again) at Japan, one of the issues in lifespan is if there is a sensible reuse opportunity when a front line fleet gets demoted. For example the late 1990s 500 series were crack trains employed on the fastest expresses originally, but were demoted to all stations services in shorter formations after 15 years or so to make way for newer, faster trains on the expresses. They're still in use today on those second tier services but there's nowhere else for them to go apart from the scrapyard once something newer gets cascaded to replace them. Some of the later double deck Japanese HS trains have had an even shorter life as the railways phase these out generally across the Shinkansen network. Back to Europe, the original Eurostars were notoriously complex bespoke trains with much unusual duplication of systems and other measures on board to meet special channel tunnel rules, and were comparatively low powered for their length and weight. It is not surprising the company is taking the opportunity to replace as much of the fleet as they can afford to with something more modern.

 

[Marklund]

Looking (ludicrously again) at Japan, one of the issues in lifespan is if there is a sensible reuse opportunity when a front line fleet gets demoted. For example the late 1990s 500 series were crack trains employed on the fastest expresses originally, but were demoted to all stations services in shorter formations after 15 years or so to make way for newer, faster trains on the expresses. They're still in use today on those second tier services but there's nowhere else for them to go apart from the scrapyard once something newer gets cascaded to replace them. Some of the later double deck Japanese HS trains have had an even shorter life as the railways phase these out generally across the Shinkansen network. Back to Europe, the original Eurostars were notoriously complex bespoke trains with much unusual duplication of systems and other measures on board to meet special channel tunnel rules, and were comparatively low powered for their length and weight. It is not surprising the company is taking the opportunity to replace as much of the fleet as they can afford to with something more modern.

I think we can agree Japan is a special case when it comes to very high speed trains, hence their disposal policy.
Europe on the other hand differs, and I agree the Eurostars are highly complex trains, and that is a much better reason for disposal, compared with this continuing myth of it's normal, especially as 1981, and 1990 trains are still running at very high speed.

 

[Gadget88]

The new Euro stars are much better so don’t see the problem. Investment in new trains is usually a postitive.

They needed WiFi and new trains which could run to Amsterdam too.

 

[skifans]

Few photos on https://jalopnik.com/theres-something-incredibly-creepy-about-an-abandoned-h-1822522268/ of 373018, looks to be in a very bad state.

 

[SHD]

They, and the ICE1s have lasted much longer than the quoted "norm" though.

So what is the European norm?
Comparing European practice with Japan is ludicrous.

As of 2018 :

The oldest PSE TGVs (Trainsets 01 and 02, nicknamed "Patrick" and "Sophie") will turn 40 this year (of which 38 years of revenue service and 37 of high-speed running). Patrick and Sophie belong to the 34 trainsets that are still in service.
They passed the 10 M km (6,000,000 miles) mark in the late 2000s.

The oldest Atlantique TGVs will turn 30 this year. They underwent a mid-life overhaul after slightly more than 15 years of service. Their removal from service & scrapping is beginning, not because of reliability problems or because they have run out of potential, but because their specific characteristics (10 coaches instead of 8, cannot be coupled with other TGV trainsets) made their "business case" uneconomical.

The oldest Duplex TGVs are 20-22 years old and are undergoing their mid-life overhaul.

 

[Marklund]

As of 2018 :

The oldest PSE TGVs (Trainsets 01 and 02, nicknamed "Patrick" and "Sophie") will turn 40 this year (of which 38 years of revenue service and 37 of high-speed running). Patrick and Sophie belong to the 34 trainsets that are still in service.
They passed the 10 M km (6,000,000 miles) mark in the late 2000s.

The oldest Atlantique TGVs will turn 30 this year. They underwent a mid-life overhaul after slightly more than 15 years of service. Their removal from service & scrapping is beginning, not because of reliability problems or because they have run out of potential, but because their specific characteristics (10 coaches instead of 8, cannot be coupled with other TGV trainsets) made their "business case" uneconomical.

The oldest Duplex TGVs are 20-22 years old and are undergoing their mid-life overhaul.

Thanks. I think this knocks the "fairly normal lifespan for very high speed rolling stock" myth out of the park.

There are plenty other reasons that the 373s are being chopped, but the end normal life isn't even close.

 

[rebmcr]

Thanks. I think this knocks the "fairly normal lifespan for very high speed rolling stock" myth out of the park.

There are plenty other reasons that the 373s are being chopped, but the end normal life isn't even close.

However, I don't think the way that SNCF spend money would be publicly acceptable this side of the channel. That makes comparisons a little difficult.

 

[Marklund]

However, I don't think the way that SNCF spend money would be publicly acceptable this side of the channel. That makes comparisons a little difficult.

Like binning brand new and as not yet built trains for others?

 

[Railperf]

I once had a depot tour at Temple Mills, and the director of engineering told me that transformers were by far one of the biggest costs in maintaining the 373's. Incidentally he also mentioned that the 373's required more maintenance when leased to GNER and used on ECML services, compared to high speed use. And the power output had to be downrated to something like 7'000 hp to be used on the ECML. Even then, they had to be limited to 110mph in places to avoid blowing the lightweight ECML electrics.

 

[43096]

I once had a depot tour at Temple Mills, and the director of engineering told me that transformers were by far one of the biggest costs in maintaining the 373's. Incidentally he also mentioned that the 373's required more maintenance when leased to GNER and used on ECML services, compared to high speed use. And the power output had to be downrated to something like 7'000 hp to be used on the ECML. Even then, they had to be limited to 110mph in places to avoid blowing the lightweight ECML electrics.

The 110mph limit was nothing to do with the power, but due to the pantograph/OHLE interface when steep changes in OHLE (e.g. over crossings) could cause issues with pantographs.

 

[sjoh]

Obviously don't condone trespassing on the railway (even the french one), but found this video exploring around an abandoned Eurostar quite moving! Thought some may appreciate it.

 

[DanTrain]

I’m not sure they care so much about trespassing in France - don’t they take the attitude that if you die whilst trespassing then it’s your fault? They certainly don’t fence railways off, I remember being mildy shocked at how the line was just open, with TGVs doing 160kph a few metres away!

 

[goblinuser]

Looks like Brexit hit Eurostar hard

 

[LOL The Irony]

It's certainly unexpected.

 

[Silver Cobra]

I think a video was posted recently in the Class 373 withdrawal thread showing people exploring this abandoned set.

Anyways, quite an interesting video. It's a shame to see it left open to vandalism like this.

 

[rf_ioliver]

A tunnel in France? Seems a bit secret. Why not just use a train scrapyard?! If they don't have any then I'm sure Booths will help out!

It's called "La réserve stratégique" - you take some old trains, hide then in a tunnel in case of war, revolution etc --- there's one in the UK, near Bath I think

t.

Ian

 

[Class313:)]

You're not meant to reveal the location....

 

[Darandio]

You're not meant to reveal the location....

Who isn't? And which location?

 

[Class313:)]

It's called "La réserve stratégique" - you take some old trains, hide then in a tunnel in case of war, revolution etc --- there's one in the UK, near Bath I think
t.

Ian

The location of the reserve strategy...PS: I wasnt being serious

 

[Crossover]

View attachment 41905 Eurostar 3017/3018 can be seen in this picture. The set is being stored in valencines

I think the remains of 3002 also stand on the siding at the other side

Does anyone know if the "clear" line is an active running line or just sidings access?

I think we can agree Japan is a special case when it comes to very high speed trains, hence their disposal policy.
Europe on the other hand differs, and I agree the Eurostars are highly complex trains, and that is a much better reason for disposal, compared with this continuing myth of it's normal, especially as 1981, and 1990 trains are still running at very high speed.

The video that goes through shows the sheer amount of electrics etc. on them. I'm not sure how it compares to other trains, but there looked to be one hell of a lot of switchgear through the train!

 

[Crossover]

Anybody remember the classic yellow and grey seat interiors the 373s used to have as well as the NOL sets?

Here's a cool video exploring the half set of 3102, the power car as many know is at Birmingham. But the coaches appear to be stored in Valenciennes next to 3017/3018, and by the looks of it these coaches have been there for years (maybe since the 2012 Olympics?). 3101's coaches apparently got scrapped by road, so I've heard.

Does anyone have any idea what the bags between coaches that they are having to climb over are?

 

[43096]

Looks like Brexit hit Eurostar hard

"Hit hard" in the sense that they have bought new trains to replace the old ones and are expanding their network.

 

[D365]

Very surprising to see this unit simply left in the open, compared to the lengths they have gone to to keep the scrapping process on the down-low.

 

[Class313:)]

since when did they try to keep the scrapping a secret? the secritive bit was the storage of some 373s in La reserve stratagique (aka the store of trains in a nuclear bunker in case of nuclear armaggeddon :/