Class 373 Eurostar withdrawals

[Peter Sarf]

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/R01020/2017/02/01/advanced Next move goes in tonight. No idea which set's going up though.

I took a walk past Temple Mills yesterday, along the road. I should have paid more attention to the more defunct looking 373s in case I could have suggested a number.

Actually the most defunct one seems to be a permanent fixture best seen from the Tottenham Hale to/from Stratford service. It is most of (a half maybe) set. It is minus the power car(s). The most memorable thing is that the coaches have steel/galvanised panels covering where the passenger doors should be. There are then, near the end of the "unit" but not coupled it, two power cars facing cab to cab.

I did notice from the road in the small shed attached alongside the long/main shed a lone power car in the new livery. On closer inspection I noticed it was numbered 3999 - the oft forgotten about spare power car !. So that lives !

 

[ChilternTurbo]

Presumably the first two 373s sent to Kingsbury have now been processed/recycled? There doesn't seem to be a huge amount of room at the scrapyard for such long rakes of stock.
I did pass by the EMR premises at Kingsbury just before Christmas and could just about see one of the units (intact) from the road. Like a lot of posters on this thread, I'd be strangely fascinated to see pictures or footage of these being scrapped...

 

[Peter Mugridge]

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/R01020/2017/02/01/advanced Next move goes in tonight. No idea which set's going up though.

3107/8 apparently.

 

[87electric]

3107/3108 indeed. Photographed at Peterborough in the small hours on crew change. 66768 doing the honours.

 

[Mordac]

Trying to summarize the situation here after last night's 'delivery' to EMR. Please correct any mistakes or omissions, which will almost certainly be here(!) green sets refurbished, orange sets to be refurbished:


In Service:
Based at Temple Mills:
3001/3002
3007/3008
3009/3010
3011/3012
3015/3016
3021/3022

Based at Brussels:
3103/3104
3105/3106

Based in Paris:
3201/3202
3205/3206
3209/3210
3211/3212
3213/3214
3215/3216
3217/3218
3219/3220
3221/3222
3223/3224
3229/3230
3231/3232

Stored Out of Use:
At Temple Mills:
3013/3014
3017/3018
3101/3102

In Paris:
3208

Scrapped:
At EMR:
3003/3004
3005/3006
3019/3020
3107/3108

Somewhere in France:
3207

 

[43096]

I thought all E* sets were now based at Temple Mills, since the E* International structure came in.

Obviously the numbering still reflects the original split between Eurostar UK (North Pole), SNCB/NMBS (Forest) and SNCF (Le Landy).

 

[Peter Sarf]

Trying to summarize the situation here after last night's 'delivery' to EMR. Please correct any mistakes or omissions, which will almost certainly be here(!) green sets refurbished, orange sets to be refurbished:


In Service:
Based at Temple Mills:
3001/3002
3007/3008
3009/3010
3011/3012
3015/3016
3021/3022

Based at Brussels:
3103/3104
3105/3106

Based in Paris:
3201/3202
3205/3206
3209/3210
3211/3212
3213/3214
3215/3216
3217/3218
3219/3220
3221/3222
3223/3224
3229/3230
3231/3232

Stored Out of Use:
At Temple Mills:
3013/3014
3017/3018
3101/3102

In Paris:
3208

Scrapped:
At EMR:
3003/3004
3005/3006
3019/3020
3107/3108

Somewhere in France:
3207

Thanks for that.

So, I wonder, where are :-
3203 & 3204
3225 & 3226
3227 & 3228
then ?

Have the French secretly converted them to razor blades ?. Probably is where 3207 is !.

Begs the question as to what the status of the NOL (33xx) fleet is as well (for completeness sake).

And do not forget, last and er least, power car 3999 in new livery at Temple Mills !.

On the subject of refurbished ones - I see only one in green. Really only one ?. If so then Eurostar do not seem really committed to refurbishing in my view. From my visits to St Pancras it seems more 373s are in the new livery - is it possible that some are merely re-painted ?.

Wonder how many of the un-refurbished ones will survive.

I seem to recall that the seventeen 374 pairs are to replace nineteen 373 pairs. But I have recently heard that the last five 374 pairs are not being built/completed yet as they will not be needed until the Dutch service starts. I certainly have not seen 3874025 - 374034 (the last five pairs) and also 374013 - 374014 (which lives in Holland apparently). So does that mean more 373s might escape the cutters torch to cover the six 374 pairs I assume are needed for the coming Dutch service ?. Or is the availability of a 373 so low that a lot fewer 374s are required to replace ?.

 

[Suraggu]

So only 8 complete sets staying in traffic?

 

[Peter Sarf]

So only 8 complete sets staying in traffic?

I did not think it was that drastic but...

There were, iirc, originally :-
11 UK pairs,
4 Belgian pairs,
16 French pairs and
about 8 North of London short pairs.

Ignoring the North of London pairs, that never have done Eurostar work, that means there were originally 31 pairs. If I am right that nineteen were going that only leaves 12 pairs. Given that three pairs have disappeared that could mean as low as 9 pairs left assuming the 3 are not part of the 19 to be scrapped.

I have a vague recollection that some Eurostars ended up working non-UK services like Paris to Brussels ?. But I think that is where the NOL sets ended up so nothing to do with the longer main sets.

I have now realised you are probably noticing/referring-to the one pair refurbished and seven pairs left to refurbish. Oh well, maybe some others will be kept for backup. But if it is only 8 pairs then I would think it possible that another order for 374s (beyond the current 17 pairs) is on the way.

Mind you, is eight pairs about right for the Belgian service alone ?.

 

[Marklund]

So, I wonder, where are :-
3203 & 3204
3225 & 3226
3227 & 3228
then ?

Have the French secretly converted them to razor blades ?. Probably is where 3207 is !.
.

Here for 3225.

So yes, probably have disappeared!

 

[Peter Mugridge]

So, I wonder, where are :-
3203 & 3204

The carriages from 3203/4 are now refurbished and are running around with the power cars from 3211/2.

The power cars from 3203/4 and the carriages from 3211/2 are doomed.

 

[Domh245]

Perhaps a Mod or the OP could amend the title of this thread to more accurately represent the current discussion (cl 373 withdrawal) than it currently is.

 

[Techniquest]

The carriages from 3203/4 are now refurbished and are running around with the power cars from 3211/2.

The power cars from 3203/4 and the carriages from 3211/2 are doomed.

Aha, so THAT's why I thought i was on 373203+373204 recently. It makes sense now!

 

[tsangpogorge]

Is there any reason why the 373's can't be useed for classic compatible services on HS2?

 

[Peter Sarf]

Is there any reason why the 373's can't be useed for classic compatible services on HS2?

Ruled out somewhere up thread.

From what I recall they are :-
1) Believed to be knackered (they have done a high mileage),
2) Too complicated (they do not need to have DC capability any more),
3) An outdated design (hard to maintain),
4) Not suitable for UK classic Overhead Line Equipment (they damage the wires - as GN discovered apparently),
5) They are too long for most normal stations and
6) It is believed that Eurostar do not want them surviving (in case a competitor starts using them).

Some of the above reasons must be true otherwise why are Eurostar replacing them ?.

 

[87electric]

Back in 2015 it was a headache to keep track of the temporary power car renumberings. This was done to match the trailer sets they worked with. Because of the power car refurbishings going on.
3007 became 3219
3008 became 3220
3015 became 3212
3016 became 3211
3219 became 3206 (while the real 3206 was at Temple Mills)

Were there more? Maybe someone else has better clarification on this.

 

[najaB]

Ruled out somewhere up thread.

From what I recall they are...

7. Single end doors increase dwell time. Less of a concern when you are operating between termini.

 

[Peter Sarf]

I have noticed that the four digit unit number appears on a little panel that looks like it opens and I think I have seen one open. Suggests to me that it would be easy to switch power car numbers around by merely undoing the hinge screws !. Kind of troubling !.

I also noticed that I could not locate any of the full length coach numbers (which include the 373nnn unit number) on a Eurostar at St Pancras that was about to head to the scrapyard. They can be hard to see but I had plenty of time to look. Possibly hidden by grime but I am not sure.

 

[tsangpogorge]

Ruled out somewhere up thread.

From what I recall they are :-
1) Believed to be knackered (they have done a high mileage),
2) Too complicated (they do not need to have DC capability any more),
3) An outdated design (hard to maintain),
4) Not suitable for UK classic Overhead Line Equipment (they damage the wires - as GN discovered apparently),
5) They are too long for most normal stations and
6) It is believed that Eurostar do not want them surviving (in case a competitor starts using them).

Some of the above reasons must be true otherwise why are Eurostar replacing them ?.

Thank you very much, my only guess was that their top speed of 186mph would reduce capacity on a 2 track railway that also carries 200mph captive stock. Will be sad to see them go, absolutely gorgeous sleek looking things (the 374's have nothing on them!) I wonder if in the distant future they can run in diesel hauled short formations on a preserved railway like the Grand Central.

 

[AlexNL]

Some of the above reasons must be true otherwise why are Eurostar replacing them ?.

And by having them scrapped at least Eurostar makes some money out of them, while storing them in a yard will only cost them money.

 

[najaB]

Thank you very much, my only guess was that their top speed of 186mph would reduce capacity on a 2 track railway that also carries 200mph captive stock.

In the grand scheme of things, a 14mph difference in top speed wouldn't matter that much. You would just ensure that they were timetabled such that they had fewer stops than the 200mph services in advance/rear of them. It's more the fact that they are fundamentally obsolete - there is newer, faster, more efficient stock available.

 

[D1009]

7. Single end doors increase dwell time. Less of a concern when you are operating between termini.

Though slightly mitigated by the lower seating capacity of a class 373 coach compared with a 374.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

I have noticed that the four digit unit number appears on a little panel that looks like it opens and I think I have seen one open. Suggests to me that it would be easy to switch power car numbers around by merely undoing the hinge screws !. Kind of troubling !

That is in fact how they do switch the power car numbers round... but look near the train end of the power car; you'll see the full number in very small digits... apparently those always retain the original identity. If there is a discrepancy between the small digits there and the larger digits on the nose panel, the smaller digits will be the ones to rely on.

In the grand scheme of things, a 14mph difference in top speed wouldn't matter that much. You would just ensure that they were timetabled such that they had fewer stops than the 200mph services in advance/rear of them. It's more the fact that they are fundamentally obsolete - there is newer, faster, more efficient stock available.

The 373s have a further disadvantage in that they are slightly more sluggish than any other TGV variant because their power to weight ratio is slightly lower.

 

[D1009]

And do not forget, last and er least, power car 3999 in new livery at Temple Mills !.

Does 3999 have significantly less mileage than the others, or is it used regularly and they renumber it every time they need it?

 

[GW43125]

3007 became 3219
3008 became 3220

Were the names swapped as well? Or does the old 3007/3008 (new 3219/3220) carry the "Waterloo Sunset" names?

 

[Chris125]

Thank you very much, my only guess was that their top speed of 186mph would reduce capacity on a 2 track railway that also carries 200mph captive stock.

HS2 services will operate at up to 225mph (360kph), which with the 373s relatively poor rate of acceleration would not make them a realistic option aside from all their other issues.

 

[87electric]

Were the names swapped as well? Or does the old 3007/3008 (new 3219/3220) carry the "Waterloo Sunset" names?

Good point. I never saw any Eurostars in this period so I honestly don't know.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Does 3999 have significantly less mileage than the others, or is it used regularly and they renumber it every time they need it?

I have only seen it in use once. Well that was as numbered 3999 so perhaps other uses were with it having a changed identity. But I can imagine it will have had less use than other power cars unless the power cars are generally so unreliable.

I do not think it is a simple swap either because I think part of the coach behind the "power car" is also part of the traction equipment - I seem to recall that the leading bogie has traction motors and there is equipment in the coach above it. So there is possibly a lot of wiring to faff with.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

3999 normally keeps that number although I am aware of at least one instance where it did swap the number. It has been used a fair bit over the years but I would expect it does have mileage that is a bit lower than most of the rest of the fleet.

 

[rebmcr]

3999 normally keeps that number although I am aware of at least one instance where it did swap the number. It has been used a fair bit over the years but I would expect it does have mileage that is a bit lower than most of the rest of the fleet.

Does anyone know whether they used it when it wasn't needed, in order to balance mileage?