class 377...

[387star]

Incidentally I was at Havant today and saw 2 class 444s right after the other and the time was 1730! It really is a myth these trains are no longer heard of in these parts... rush hour as well.

Anyway back to 377s I saw two today which were formed of 4 coaches with a low density ex connex spe interior. Are these diagrammed on certain services? I never seem to catch one only the 3 coach units (with non southern interior)

Finally when will the evening Brighton FGW trains become 3 coaches. Two is not enough especially as on the outward leg the train is packed with schoolkids by the time it reaches Chichester...

 

[swt_passenger]

Incidentally I was at Havant today and saw 2 class 444s right after the other and the time was 1730! It really is a myth these trains are no longer heard of in these parts... rush hour as well.

I went right through the weekday CWNs a while back.

Departures from Portsmouth (SS & Harbour) are about 55% 444 and 45% 450 over the course of the day. That includes 'via Basingstoke', but the ratio still holds for them as well...

 

[387star]

Yeah cheers. TBH what I think is all trains via Guildford should be 444s an all via Basingstoke (from Porstmouth) 450s

The Guildford is the flagship route, surely

 

[MCR247]

No, I think most of the Basingstoke ones are 444s actually. Most off-peak Guildford ones are 450s I think

 

[swt_passenger]

No, I think most of the Basingstoke ones are 444s actually. Most off-peak Guildford ones are 450s I think

1T18 05 43 Waterloo EH 12 450
1T20 06 23 Waterloo EH 12 450
1T22 06 38 Waterloo EH 8 450
1T24 07 24 Waterloo EH 5 444
1T26 07 55 Waterloo EH 5 444
1T30 08 55 Waterloo EH 5 444
1T34 09 55 Waterloo EH 5 444
1T38 10 55 Waterloo EH 4 450
1T42 11 55 Waterloo EH 4 450
1T46 12 55 Waterloo EH 5 444
1T50 13 55 Waterloo EH 5 444
1T54 14 55 Waterloo EH 8 450
1T58 15 55 Waterloo EH 12 450
1T62 16 55 Waterloo EH 8 450
1T66 17 55 Waterloo EH 4 450
1T70 18 55 Waterloo EH 5 444
2T62 19 55 Waterloo EH 8 450
2T64 20 55 Waterloo EH 4 450

The latest planned diagrams, SX up direction only

To avoid a massive post, the same exercise for Portsmouth Harbour to Waterloo has
13 services operated by 450,
27 services operated by 444s

Obviously a number of services run from Portsmouth and Southsea as well, but I hope that shows that the situation claimed by some is nothing like the reality.

 

[MCR247]

Is that including via Woking?

 

[swt_passenger]

Is that including via Woking?

The list part is 'via Eastleigh' - hence EH - they all go via Woking.
The other 40 are all via Woking except for 3 that go via Cobham.

I haven't included P&S starters, or the odd few that start at Havant.

 

[MCR247]

Ok

 

[387star]

The above diagrams refer to Waterloo via Eastleigh. My point was that all trains via Eastleigh and Winchester which originate in Portsmouth should be 450s whereas the more prestigious Guildford route should be 444s. It seems funny that any 444s should bve used during the peaks when SWT state the 450s are suited to those turns.

As an aside Barnham, Ford and Bosham stations are being repainted whilst Chichester's footbridge alongside the station is finally being repainted an attractive green.

 

[swt_passenger]

The above diagrams refer to Waterloo via Eastleigh. My point was that all trains via Eastleigh and Winchester which originate in Portsmouth should be 450s whereas the more prestigious Guildford route should be 444s.

But that completely ignores the fact that the highest capacity is needed on the Guildford route. It's nothing to do with prestige - it's about seat numbers on particular peak services - a 12.450 provides 140 more seats than a 10.444.

And yes, the list of individual services refers to 'via Eastleigh', but the numbers underneath refer to Portsmouth Harbour to Waterloo via Guildford services, of which 27 out of 40 each day are operated by 444s.

Your original point was that you were surprised to see 444s on peak services through Havant - I was just trying to confirm that (as you rightly said) it is a myth that all services are 450s.

 

[387star]

Thanks for that. So there are actually more 444s than 450s on the Portsmouth via Guildford route then! That has only just sunken in because I did read the above figures but must have skimmed over the Guildford figures.

I saw a double 444 at Havant only this evening very nice to see. A shame Saturday services are all 450s? (according to a previous poster)

 

[387star]

Hey perhaps high capacity seating really has advantages on certain services after all (myself never seeing how busy the Guildford line can get during the peak time hours)

A 4 car Southern low density electrostar was full and standing or rather any seats which were free wern't so obviously free and accessible, all seats being round tables. A 377/4 would have solved that and provided a more comfortable journey for those standing and those seated..


I was lucky to travel on the 377/1 (?) as they rarely come through Havant. A 4 car 377 but with tables around almost all seats

Btw the 377s which run under the wires... they have southern spec seats?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Also reading the SWT managers session why do so many people seem to hate the 450s as they arn't that bad really are they. And it is a shame the 444s get so much stick against the 442s as really they are fine trains./ The 442s were liked so much more for the facilities (buffet and compartments) and lower density seating I imagine... which wern't going to last anyway!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
btw are all waterloo-bournemouth/poole/weymouth trains 444s? 450s only run between southampton and london and brokenhurst westwards/southampton-bournemouth?

 

[Matt Taylor]

There is nothing rare about a 377/1 in Havant, they run approximately 1 in 5 of the 377 services, the others being made up equally of 377/4s and 377/3s.

And while 444s operate most services on the Pompey direct route I really cannot see any excuse for running a 4 car 450 on two up services and 2 down services during the day, if a 450 has to be used it should be at least an 8 car.

 

[thefab444]

Indeed, and it is not simply a case of 377/1 = low density either. The 377/2s, 377/4s and 377/5s have mostly 2 + 3 seating with some 2 + 2 seating in the driving cars, of the awful Southern astroturf variety. This also applies to higher numbered 377/1s (above 377140 IIRC). The lower numbered 377/1s and 377/3s all have the original Connex specification 2 + 2 interior, with is slightly more bareable, although I'd much rather have a 444. Dual voltage 377/2s are fairly rare down here, but by no means unheard of.

Virtually all services to/from Weymouth are booked for a 444, with a handful of 450s on weekdays:

0611 Bournemouth - Weymouth
0723 Weymouth - Brockenhurst

0540 Basingstoke - Weymouth
0820 Weymouth - London Waterloo (joins with a further 450 at Southampton Central thankfully)

The Poole stopping services are fairly mixed between 444s and 450s on weekdays, and entirely 444 operated on weekends.

 

[Ricardo]

The key issue on the Portsmouth-Waterloo line is that the 450s are used to boost capacity on the services with the heaviest passenger loads.

Although between half and two thirds of the Portsmouth Direct services are 444 operated, many of the 444 services are off peak trains- peak demand, especially north of Petersfield, is strong, and many services are 12x450 because of the putative 140 extra seats over the 10x444 alternative (not to mention that the 444s are needed for the SWML services!).

Consequently I'd wager that a majority of the passenger traffic gets to travel by 450. There is a good argument that 450s are not ideal for the route- the lack of tables means that commuters on 450s cannot easily use laptops or otherwise work, and journeys from London to many stations south of Haslemere generally take 1 hour +. Thats a lot of "lost" potential work time on a route where many commuters had become familiar with being able to work on the 444s - hence the controversy.

As for the argument about 450s providing extra capacity over 44s due to 3+2 seating.....I'd be inclined to disagree on that one. How often does the middle seat of the block of 3 get used? Even in the peaks, I observe that many people tend to stand rather than use the middle seat.

 

[387star]

I don't mind the middle seat!

Has First Class patronage risen on the 450s as a result then? There are tables there plus airline seats still have tables so it might be possible. I would be v interested to see the portsmouth via guildford split diagrams of 450s and 444s if possible.

Looking at the diagrams for the other portsmouth via eastleigh it appears 450s are used very early but come half 7 it's 444s unless this is because by the time those trains arrive in london it has gone 9AM and hence no longer counts as a peak time service? (07:24,07:55)

Thanks for the Poole lines information. I am assuming fast trains (outside the busy slots) would be 444 operated on both bournemouth and portsmouth bound lines whilst slower services would be 450s.. that would make sense for people are more likely to travel only a short distance on slower services notwithstanding their origin station hence southern's argument for introducing 313s
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
How about joining the 444s and 450s surely this is possible so you could have the best of both!

If it is true saturday portsmouth services via guildford are all 450s why is this?

 

[MCR247]

Maybe a few more 444s are needed because all Pompey via Eastleigh, Poole and presumably Weymouth's are 444s?

 

[387star]

The Poole stopping services are fairly mixed between 444s and 450s on weekdays, and entirely 444 operated on weekends.

What about the fast services- these all 444s?

I have no idea how many trains terminate at bournemouth and how many at poole either (from waterloo) and what traction any bournemouth trains would be

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I don't mind the middle seat!

Has First Class patronage risen on the 450s as a result then? There are tables there plus airline seats still have tables so it might be possible. I would be v interested to see the portsmouth via guildford split diagrams of 450s and 444s if possible.

Looking at the diagrams for the other portsmouth via eastleigh it appears 450s are used very early but come half 7 it's 444s unless this is because by the time those trains arrive in london it has gone 9AM and hence no longer counts as a peak time service? (07:24,07:55)

Thanks for the Poole lines information. I am assuming fast trains (outside the busy slots) would be 444 operated on both bournemouth and portsmouth bound lines whilst slower services would be 450s.. that would make sense for people are more likely to travel only a short distance on slower services notwithstanding their origin station hence southern's argument for introducing 313s
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
How about joining the 444s and 450s surely this is possible so you could have the best of both!

If it is true saturday portsmouth services via guildford are all 450s why is this?

To any of the above?

 

[MCR247]

Bumping won't help, if anyone knows, they will most likely post :x

 

[thefab444]

I don't see why someone who can't be bothered to look in the timetable to see how many trains terminate at Bournemouth deserves a reply detailing unit diagramming information.

 

[387star]

Classes arn't mentioned in timetables! sorry though!!!

 

[ainsworth74]

Classes arn't mentioned in timetables! sorry though!!!

Indeed they aren't but if you can't be bothered to at least find out how many trains are terminating at Bournemouth, why should someone else go to the trouble of finding out what classes they are going to be?

 

[387star]

Fair point :$

 

[thefab444]

Basically, the format is:

Weekdays

• Weymouth services: almost entirely 444
• Poole stopping services: roughly split between 444 and 450

Weekends

• Weymouth services: entirely 444
• Poole stopping services: entirely 444

 

[387star]

Thanks- Any idea why it changes at weekends to 444s only on Poole stopping services? Perhaps that explains less of them on Portsmouth duties