Class 379 updates (all are OFF LEASE)

[43096]

Lol feisty.
I thought for official reasons they maybe still down as 'southern' rather than everything being merged

Legally you can't contract with Southern as it doesn't exist other than as a brand. Certainly the ROSCOs won't sign contracts for leasing other than with a legal entity (i.e. a company).

 

[Energy]

This is an unessecarily aggressive response to a simple mistake. Its an easy mistake that anyone can make.

Is it? Its not a typo or any other simple mistake, while driver views are useful they shouldn't be taken as factual. Class 379 to GN does seem likely to me (and many others) but it isn't uncommon on this forum to have something less likely supposedly said by a driver taken as factual.

 

[Peregrine 4903]

Is it? Its not a typo or any other simple mistake, while driver views are useful they shouldn't be taken as factual. Class 379 to GN does seem likely to me (and many others) but it isn't uncommon on this forum to have something less likely supposedly said by a driver taken as factual.

Ah, no it was just more in refernce the poster assume the 387's was leased by Southern but then sub-leased to Great Northern which isn't correct. Just thought that is a simple mistake for someone to make, no need to jump on someone's back for it.

 

[hwl]

But this isn't a rumour made up by railuk forums.

Exactly, no smoke without fire on this one. Though I suspect GTR might have been a bit too clever with their rolling stock plans for this year and will get burnt.

There are some genuine clues out in the public domain that a transfer was at least planned to happen. And a rail journalist not posting anything about it means nothing.

RC's tweets and stories aren't always correct either.

 

[physics34]

Ah, no it was just more in refernce the poster assume the 387's was leased by Southern but then sub-leased to Great Northern which isn't correct. Just thought that is a simple mistake for someone to make, no need to jump on someone's back for it.

Exactly. Sometimes us workers get told things last. Obviously i know gtr is Southern, TL and GN, but theyre may have been something in the background, on paper, that stock leasing is treated separately between parts of the franchise. Within GTR many departments are separately run in expectation (in the past) that all 3 maybe split again.

Legally you can't contract with Southern as it doesn't exist other than as a brand. Certainly the ROSCOs won't sign contracts for leasing other than with a legal entity (i.e. a company).

Cool.

 

[hwl]

Exactly. Sometimes us workers get told things last. Obviously i know gtr is Southern, TL and GN, but theyre may have been something in the background, on paper, that stock leasing is treated separately between parts of the franchise. Within GTR many departments are separately run in expectation (in the past) that all 3 maybe split again.

The question is where anyone bothered amending the original paperwork as they certainly were originally sub-leased and the leasing term was till then max extension of the original management contract to this coming autumn so quite possibly no need to have amended yet.

 

[Energy]

Ah, no it was just more in refernce the poster assume the 387's was leased by Southern but then sub-leased to Great Northern which isn't correct. Just thought that is a simple mistake for someone to make, no need to jump on someone's back for it.

Ahh ok. The message you were replying to was about someone taking what a driver said as fact.

 

[43102EMR]

I do enjoy it when someone quotes some driver/guard/platform bert about fleet moves to another TOC when they have zero involvement in such decision making - particularly about the transfer to GTR.

They are still employees of the company, are they not? They’ll still know more of what goes on internally than the likes of me or you, even if it isn’t 100% accurate…

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I do enjoy it when someone quotes some driver/guard/platform bert about fleet moves to another TOC when they have zero involvement in such decision making - particularly about the transfer to GTR.

Exactly. And that depot rumour is precisely what starts these endless rumours which then get taken as fact.

 

[Peregrine 4903]

Exactly. And that depot rumour is precisely what starts these endless rumours which then get taken as fact.

It isn't though. Look at the Dec 21 TPR's for Anglia which are a public document and you will see a massive clue in there that the Class 379's were at least planned to transfer to Great Northern, and that's just stuff in the public domain.

 

[Sutton in Ant]

Ah, no it was just more in refernce the poster assume the 387's was leased by Southern but then sub-leased to Great Northern which isn't correct. Just thought that is a simple mistake for someone to make, no need to jump on someone's back for it.

No. The 387's are not owned by Southern. They are owned in my beliefs by Porterbrook and they lease them out to GTR.

 

[43102EMR]

No. The 387's are not owned by Southern. They are owned in my beliefs by Porterbrook and they lease them out to GTR.

Correct - Porterbrook owns the entire fleet of 107 387s I believe

 

[Peregrine 4903]

No. The 387's are not owned by Southern. They are owned in my beliefs by Porterbrook and they lease them out to GTR.

I was just referring to another poster.

 

[duffman82]

I do enjoy it when someone quotes some driver/guard/platform bert about fleet moves to another TOC when they have zero involvement in such decision making - particularly about the transfer

I enjoy when people are so arrogant and unwilling to discuss what a person has heard from a driver who drives said units every day so probably have some idea what's going to happen to units in the future.

No wonder people lambast this forum on other sites for being unwelcoming.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I enjoy when people are so arrogant and unwilling to discuss what a person has heard from a driver who drives said units every day so probably have some idea what's going to happen to units in the future.

No wonder people lambast this forum on other sites for being unwelcoming.

My guy, just the other month a driver of the 455+456 combo I was on informed me that the 456s would be staying until Autumn… said 456s now being withdrawn and stored.

 

[AlexNL]

I enjoy when people are so arrogant and unwilling to discuss what a person has heard from a driver who drives said units every day so probably have some idea what's going to happen to units in the future.

No wonder people lambast this forum on other sites for being unwelcoming.

Of course things will trickle down internally well before plans are public, but don't underestimate how much messroom gossip there is within the railway.

I've had friends who work in the railway industry in operational roles tell me "with 100% certainty" that something would happen with regards to certain types of rolling stock, which in the end never materialised.

 

[warwickshire]

Best advice would be wait and see what actually happens because on the railway as we know so many rumours or gossip applies this will happen and this will happen and quess what? The only option not rumoured or even thought off happens. And does happen.
So all we can do 379 wise is wait and see what happens each and every single day now in the coming months on what they actually run on. Remember as the old saying goes it's not over until the fat lady sings. Or in modern day laymen times until its actually confirmed and fully in writing as being confirmed as to what is actually happening to them.

 

[D365]

I’m just dying for official confirmation that will stop me thinking everyone’s still speculating, even those who are rail staff.

”Dying” for confirmation seems a bit extreme! It’s just another Electrostar fleet.

 

[43074]

I’ve also heard from reliable sources that this has “cooled down”. 379 high leasing charges struck again? May well be some politics going on, though.

This is the most accurate post in the thread, they were certainly planned for entry into service from the May timetable at one point, but the GatEx 387s already based at Hornsey will just stay on the GN side for the time being as they aren't/won't be needed south of the river.

 

[duffman82]

My guy, just the other month a driver of the 455+456 combo I was on informed me that the 456s would be staying until Autumn… said 456s now being withdrawn and stored.

Plans change, My guy.

 

[43102EMR]

This is the most accurate post in the thread, they were certainly planned for entry into service from the May timetable at one point, but the GatEx 387s already based at Hornsey will just stay on the GN side for the time being as they aren't/won't be needed south of the river.

That doesn’t necessarily mean it won’t be happening altogether… it just means it won’t be happening straight away. After all, isn’t the whole point to bin Southern’s older stock i.e. the 313s and 455s?

 

[hwl]

No. The 387's are not owned by Southern.

No one is/was saying they are.
The original position on 387/1s was owned by Porterbrook (still are) leased to Southern and sub-leased to FCC and later the Govia TL+ GN successor entity for ~9 months before Southern was rolled into GTR. The original lease period was till later this year.
In a similar way the 25x SE 377/5 and /1 are owned by Porterbrook, leased by Southern (pre GTR) and subleased to SE.

There is plenty of sub-leased stock on the network including SE subleasing some 707s back to SWR.

That doesn’t necessarily mean it won’t be happening altogether… it just means it won’t be happening straight away.

Agreed

After all, isn’t the whole point to bin Southern’s older stock i.e. the 313s and 455s?

It is but GTR may have been a bit optimistic in terms of estimating likely demand reduction and what they could get away with it terms of service level and train lengths leaving a capacity gap if all the old stock is removed. Demand level recovery on GTR and into large urban areas more generally (nationally) has shown a greater recovery in shorter distance commuting than longer which is problematic for the cunning plan (and bad for industry subsidy requirements).

There is also the need to fit ETCS immenently and an interior refurb was progress will naturally be slower than wished for.

Which is a second good reason apart from Akiem potentially stalling on leasing cost reductions - a good period off lease attracting storage costs helps focus minds. Akiem are more realistic than Macquarie were.

Newer stock needs less maintenance and down time than the 313s/455s hence GTR will be anticipating maintenance cost reductions and fewer new units replacing those leaving.

 

[AJD]

Whatever we get told as drivers, whether or not it comes from high-ish level ASLEF reps or the managing director, it's still difficult to find concrete evidence to back any of it up. At the height of the 800 cracking discussions, we were being told that either 365s or GX387s were being planned to cover the York to London stoppers to cover the units that will be out of service due to the repair schedule. The latter unit aparently being selected due to the fitment of tables and a red livery!? I instantly perused these forums when I heard and, unless I missed something, I don't recall seeing anything mentioned. Shows what any of us on the inside know When querying the tender for the 10 additional sets, the man at the top reckoned it was between Hitachi (God forbid), Stadler (interesting...) and an unnamed "Chinese firm"

Even the higher ups didn't really seem to have much to give away in terms of fleet plans. I usually check on here to be honest. The thought of 379s in their current configuration roaming about the GN routes sounds like a good deal! Fingers and toes crossed.

 

[bramling]

No one is/was saying they are.
The original position on 387/1s was owned by Porterbrook (still are) leased to Southern and sub-leased to FCC and later the Govia TL+ GN successor entity for ~9 months before Southern was rolled into GTR. The original lease period was till later this year.
In a similar way the 25x SE 377/5 and /1 are owned by Porterbrook, leased by Southern (pre GTR) and subleased to SE.

There is plenty of sub-leased stock on the network including SE subleasing some 707s back to SWR.



Agreed

It is but GTR may have been a bit optimistic in terms of estimating likely demand reduction and what they could get away with it terms of service level and train lengths leaving a capacity gap if all the old stock is removed. Demand level recovery on GTR and into large urban areas more generally (nationally) has shown a greater recovery in shorter distance commuting than longer which is problematic for the cunning plan (and bad for industry subsidy requirements).

There is also the need to fit ETCS immenently and an interior refurb was progress will naturally be slower than wished for.

Which is a second good reason apart from Akiem potentially stalling on leasing cost reductions - a good period off lease attracting storage costs helps focus minds. Akiem are more realistic than Macquarie were.

Newer stock needs less maintenance and down time than the 313s/455s hence GTR will be anticipating maintenance cost reductions and fewer new units replacing those leaving.

It’s always been my view that getting ride of more than two of 313/365/455 was way too optimistic, even with the 379s it is pushing it. Expecting to lose over 80 units is a significant loss.

One wonders to what extent it’s good value for the taxpayer if GTR find they essentially *need* the 379s and get lumbered with an expensive lease, compared to the 365s which in a sane world ought to have been dirt-cheap to lease.

GTR haven’t exactly covered themselves with glory on the GN side recently. In particular, there’s chronic overcrowding on the 717 services at times. This would certainly tie in with the notion that inner-suburban commuting has returned faster.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

It’s always been my view that getting ride of more than two of 313/365/455 was way too optimistic, even with the 379s it is pushing it. Expecting to lose over 80 units is a significant loss.

One wonders to what extent it’s good value for the taxpayer if GTR find they essentially *need* the 379s and get lumbered with an expensive lease, compared to the 365s which in a sane world ought to have been dirt-cheap to lease.

GTR haven’t exactly covered themselves with glory on the GN side recently. In particular, there’s chronic overcrowding on the 717 services at times. This would certainly tie in with the notion that inner-suburban commuting has returned faster.

GTR don't get lumbered with expensive leases the taxpayer does. With DofT being pressurised by HMT to reduce cost of supporting the railways they are looking at quick wins and stock on leases that can be terminated without penalties is a quick win which in the case of the 379's saves £13mpa.

In the case of the 717's the units are on a hell or high water lease of £14m pa which means GTR ie us have to pay for them whether they are in use or not so whilst it may have been sensible to dial back the service at the start of the year by now they should have steadily building it back up. They even say on the GN webpage

Services towards London in the morning peak and away from London in the evening peak are expected to be very busy. Please travel outside these times were possible.

There's an intimation that things may change from 28th Feb so lets see but more reinforcement of the peak hours should have happened by now.

 

[DanNCL]

Whatever we get told as drivers, whether or not it comes from high-ish level ASLEF reps or the managing director, it's still difficult to find concrete evidence to back any of it up. At the height of the 800 cracking discussions, we were being told that either 365s or GX387s were being planned to cover the York to London stoppers to cover the units that will be out of service due to the repair schedule. The latter unit aparently being selected due to the fitment of tables and a red livery!? I instantly perused these forums when I heard and, unless I missed something, I don't recall seeing anything mentioned. Shows what any of us on the inside know When querying the tender for the 10 additional sets, the man at the top reckoned it was between Hitachi (God forbid), Stadler (interesting...) and an unnamed "Chinese firm"

Even the higher ups didn't really seem to have much to give away in terms of fleet plans. I usually check on here to be honest. The thought of 379s in their current configuration roaming about the GN routes sounds like a good deal! Fingers and toes crossed.

At no point were either 365s or 387s being seriously considered to cover London - York. LNER's backup plan for if the 80xs were to be entirely grounded for an extended period of time (which thankfully wasn't the case) was to run a limited London - York service with their remaining 91+Mark 4 sets, and to leave passengers to use other TOCs (mainly XC and Northern) for everything else. I think this is a very good example of why what management and the unions tell their own staff about fleet plans can't always be relied upon!

 

[Bikeman78]

Newer stock needs less maintenance and down time than the 313s/455s hence GTR will be anticipating maintenance cost reductions and fewer new units replacing those leaving.

I wouldn't bank on that. Pre Covid the 455s had 42 diagrams for 46 units. The 379s had 27 diagrams for 30 units but rarely achieved it in recent years. In fact I think the diagrams reduced to 25. I can't recall exactly when but it would have been around 2019.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

”Dying” for confirmation seems a bit extreme! It’s just another Electrostar fleet.

Oh I know, and I don’t particularly care about where they end up. I just don’t like the constant assumptions that because it seems the most feasible to transfer them to GN, that’s what will happen.

Meanwhile, over on Twitter, just for confirmation…

Hi, I believe your Class 379 trains have now been withdrawn. Is that correct? Thanks.

Yes, that is correct. - Kat

Attached image shows the above exchange.

 

[hwl]

I wouldn't bank on that. Pre Covid the 455s had 42 diagrams for 46 units. The 379s had 27 diagrams for 30 units but rarely achieved it in recent years. In fact I think the diagrams reduced to 25. I can't recall exactly when but it would have been around 2019.

Some of the 455 diagrams weren't hugely long allowing for maintenance etc. And some are there post transfer of 455 maintenance to Stewarts Lane to rotate the units round suitably.
The original plan at contract bidding was to retire just over 1/3 of the SN 455 fleet but the non-transfer of CAT + TAT Thameslink put paid to that.

Effectively the GTR plan with 379s and 387/3 coming in thus allowing cascades from c2c involves(ed?) massive service and capacity cuts that are liable to lead to overcrowding and massive complaints. Asking travellers to commute at quieter times / days won't align well with the governments back to normal strategy come summer.

I just don’t like the constant assumptions that because it seems the most feasible to transfer them to GN, that’s what will happen.

"Assumption" or not depends very heavily on what documents certain people may or may not have seen.

 

[43102EMR]

Oh I know, and I don’t particularly care about where they end up. I just don’t like the constant assumptions that because it seems the most feasible to transfer them to GN, that’s what will happen.

Meanwhile, over on Twitter, just for confirmation…


Attached image shows the above exchange.

But it’s not an assumption as there are several sources within GTR as well as documents suggesting the transfer - an example of an assumption would be “the 379s will be replacing the EMR 360s as they’re now unsuitable for the Corby route”…