Class 387

[158722]

What was the position as regards add-on orders for 387s (or indeed 345s?) over and above what has been announced? Suggestions elsewhere that there might be a 'surprise' add-on order for 40 more 4-car units. Was it confirmed that 378 centre cars and 387/1s for GWR would be the last to use Electrostar platform?

Now, where would an extra 40 4-car units come in useful?

 

[Stats]

There are options for 18 additional Crossrail trains and 24 units for train lengthening and additional trains in the London Overground order. All options on the 387s have been taken.

 

[swt_passenger]

There are options for 18 additional Crossrail trains and 249 cars for train lengthening and additional trains in the London Overground order. All options on the 387s have been taken.

Doesn't that figure of 249 include the actual order, (for 45 x 4 car units) - i.e. it is the total possible including 69 options?

IIRC there was some debate about the numbers in the thread we had back in June, but the consensus seemed to be that it was a total.

However following the standstill period Bombardier's confirmatory press release said that the order was for 45 x 4 car units and included an option for 24 further units (96 vehicles). 276 in total: http://uk.bombardier.com/content/gb...olling-stock-and-maintenan.bombardiercom.html

 

[47802]

What was the position as regards add-on orders for 387s (or indeed 345s?) over and above what has been announced? Suggestions elsewhere that there might be a 'surprise' add-on order for 40 more 4-car units. Was it confirmed that 378 centre cars and 387/1s for GWR would be the last to use Electrostar platform?

Now, where would an extra 40 4-car units come in useful?

Yes I have probably seen where you got that from if its true?. As has been stated there are add on options for both Aventra orders but there is none for Electrostars so it would have to be a new order presumably without options as you would think Bombardier will want to close production at some point but I guess if its something they can stick on the end of the GW Order.

Where you probably seen there was a suggestion of Northern to replace 323's and new Regional units which is interesting but that would kind of assume that all the bidders had picked the same supplier unless of course the Dft has picked the suppler for them.

 

[Philip Phlopp]

There's an order or cascade to be arranged for the additional units c2c needs in 2019 - 17 units/68 carriages, unless I've completely missed an announcement on tender/contract agreement for this.

 

[47802]

There's an order or cascade to be arranged for the additional units c2c needs in 2019 - 17 units/68 carriages, unless I've completely missed an announcement on tender/contract agreement for this.

Indeed but we are allegedly taking about 160 carriages in this case

 

[Philip Phlopp]

Indeed but we are allegedly taking about 160 carriages in this case

Yes - either Bombardier can be contracted to make an additional batch of Electrostar units of some description (though the latest Electrostar units aren't really Electrostar units at all - they're essentially a Mark 0 Aventra) or an existing Electrostar fleet is split up and spread to operators who need additional units, with one large new order of Aventra units as a replacement.

 

[Stats]

Doesn't that figure of 249 include the actual order, (for 45 x 4 car units) - i.e. it is the total possible including 69 options?

IIRC there was some debate about the numbers in the thread we had back in June, but the consensus seemed to be that it was a total.

However following the standstill period Bombardier's confirmatory press release said that the order was for 45 x 4 car units and included an option for 24 further units (96 vehicles). 276 in total: http://uk.bombardier.com/content/gb...olling-stock-and-maintenan.bombardiercom.html

Thanks for the correction.

 

[D365]

Yes - either Bombardier can be contracted to make an additional batch of Electrostar units of some description (though the latest Electrostar units aren't really Electrostar units at all - they're essentially a Mark 0 Aventra) or an existing Electrostar fleet is split up and spread to operators who need additional units, with one large new order of Aventra units as a replacement.

Don't forget that (although it was last suggested before the TPE/MML electrification pause) Southeastern was due to release 20x Class 375/6 (out of a total 30 DV units). If it wasn't for the cab gangways (possibly) being an issue with DOO, I would suggest that this fleet could be a suitable candidate for the additional units required in the next Essex Thameside franchise.

 

[47802]

I can only see 2 reasons for building more Electrostars or Aventra 0 as some people like to call them, one is for a fairly quick build that can start on the end of the existing 387 order or for some measure of compatibility with existing Electrostars.

While it meets the latter C2C doesn't meet this in terms projected entry into service date or number of trains involved.

 

[Class377/5]

Have they changed the interior design since the mock-up was made?

This is a picture of the mock up

Class 700 Interior by Mackenzie Soley, on Flickr

As for the additional units, word is Porterbrook is looking at two orders for a total of 40 four car units. They won't be Electrostars.

 

[trainlogger]

Looks like 80 more 387 vehicles have been ordered:
http://www.porterbrook.co.uk/pages/corp2015.html

November 2015

02.11.15

Porterbrook Invests in Additional Class 387 EMUs

Porterbrook Leasing announces its purchase of 80 class 387 Electrostar vehicles from Bombardier; adding to its recent orders for 256 class 387 vehicles. The vehicles will be built at Bombardier's Derby site and delivery of the vehicles will commence from October 2016, with full delivery to be taken ahead of June 2017.

Supporting the aspiration of the Department for Transport for the rolling stock market to invest in new vehicles to satisfy increasing capacity requirements in the near and medium term, Porterbrook's investment decision also embraces the initiative for the Midlands Engine for Growth and supports local skills and manufacturing jobs in the region.

These new trains will help satisfy the future demand for mid-distance electric trains which currently represent approximately 50% of all passenger trains in the UK. They will be required for the lines to be electrified in the near future and they will be used to alleviate higher than forecast passenger growth and overcrowding.

Transport Secretary Patrick McLoughlin said: “This deal is fantastic news, both for East Midlands' booming rail industry, and for passengers, who will benefit from more British-built trains on the rail network in the future.

“Introducing more modern, high-quality trains is central to our commitment to give passengers better journeys and boost economic growth, with more than 3,700 extra carriages set to be introduced across the network by the end of 2019. It is great to see the industry leading the way.”

The Electrostars are already widely used across the network within TSGN, Essex Thameside, South Eastern and soon Great Western franchises.

A number of parties have already expressed an interest in leasing this new fleet, notably Rail for London but also established operators and prospective bidders of upcoming franchises.

 

[D365]

That's only one of the two orders that was put forward by Class377/5. Porterbrook sure do know how to keep us on our toes!

Makes me think that Angel Trains might have to start flogging their surplus Class 317s if they want to see any more life out of them, once GN and LO are disposed of them. Bearing in mind that the younger GN and ScotRail Class 321s may find themselves back on the market, along with any remaining 319s.

 

[northwichcat]

The leasing company said the order would ‘help satisfy the future demand for mid-distance electric trains’ which will be required for the lines to be electrified ‘in the near future’ and ‘to alleviate higher than forecast passenger growth and overcrowding’.

http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/...tml?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

Let's hope they don't see Manchester Airport to Scotland as a mid-distance route suitable to use 387s on. Although they probably would be suitable as class 323 replacement at Northern, not that the 323s run 'mid-distance' routes.

 

[AM9]

http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/...tml?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

Let's hope they don't see Manchester Airport to Scotland as a mid-distance route suitable to use 387s on. Although they probably would be suitable as class 323 replacement at Northern, not that the 323s run 'mid-distance' routes.

Surely they don't have the passenger seating capacity per metre platform length for 323 duties.

 

[northwichcat]

Surely they don't have the passenger seating capacity per metre platform length for 323 duties.

How many seats do they have? The 323s have 244 or 284 seats (the 244 seaters have more luggage racks) but aren't post-2019 compliant with their current seating capacity. I'm pretty sure Stoke services are usually the busiest and they'll be extra stoppers between Macclesfield and Manchester from December 2017 which should ease the pressure on Stoke services.

 

[D365]

Surely they don't have the passenger seating capacity per metre platform length for 323 duties.

Replacement for the Class 323s is an interesting proposition actually. Especially if they make another order when electrification gets back on track.

What kind of interior would be most suitable for such a stock, assuming it will turn up around Manchester?

 

[MidlandMainlie]

http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/...tml?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

Let's hope they don't see Manchester Airport to Scotland as a mid-distance route suitable to use 387s on. Although they probably would be suitable as class 323 replacement at Northern, not that the 323s run 'mid-distance' routes.

Would their 110 mph capability be an advantage over the 350's when it comes to pathing on the WCML. Assuming these extra 387's are 4 car unites then that means 20 trains replacing 10x 350/4's, would that be enough to double up busy services and introduce a new Liverpool - Scotland sevive by splitting/joining at Preston?

If not for TPE or 323 routes then what other franchises/services could they run?

EDIT Just realised 350/4 are already 110mph capable

 

[47802]

Well cannot be for Northern I mean the idea of 120 new DMU carriages and 80 new EMU carriages would be too much of a shock for Northern customers.

 

[87015]

Well cannot be for Northern I mean the idea of 120 new DMU carriages and 80 new EMU carriages would be too much of a shock for Northern customers.

Don't worry, these 20 387s are already spoken for in the south for the first bit of their life at lease

 

[MidlandMainlie]

Would their 110 mph capability be an advantage over the 350's when it comes to pathing on the WCML. Assuming these extra 387's are 4 car unites then that means 20 trains replacing 10x 350/4's, would that be enough to double up busy services and introduce a new Liverpool - Scotland sevive by splitting/joining at Preston?

If not for TPE or 323 routes then what other franchises/services could they run?

EDIT Just realised 350/4 are already 110mph capable

Just had another thought, an extra 20 387's could release the replace the 21 365's destined for the Thames valley giving a uniform fleet or could release the remaining 365's from GTR for use elsewhere, thoughts?

 

[Class377/5]

Sounds Northern to me.

They will be required for the lines to be electrified in the near future and they will be used to alleviate higher than forecast passenger growth and overcrowding.

 

[Class 466]

They'd be welcome to help alleviate overcrowding in Kent!

 

[47802]

Sounds Northern to me.

Well the fact they haven't said where they are going may suggest that, If they were going to replace the 365's on GWR you would think they would announce that.

 

[Domh245]

I would have thought Corby services post electrification might be an option. There was lots of talk initially of them winding up there, surely it is still feasible?

 

[47802]

I would have thought Corby services post electrification might be an option. There was lots of talk initially of them winding up there, surely it is still feasible?

Corby 2019, these trains down to be ready Mid 2017, according to Tony Miles on wnxx he is saying they look like a purely speculative order and will be up for grabs, and would be an expensive to lease for Northern but of course Northern need 323 replacements, and some Electric or Bi-mode Regional Expresses.

 

[Class377/5]

Well the fact they haven't said where they are going may suggest that, If they were going to replace the 365's on GWR you would think they would announce that.

Fact that deals GWR are signed (so they already have a planned increase in capacity) where as Northern is add yet up for grabs with no deals signed and rumours bidders have similar plans for some parts.

Introducing these units on GWR would require rewriting the deal GWR.

Also reported units are dual voltage too.

 

[D365]

Perhaps it would be more cost effective (and cheaper for Northern) if GWR/Porterbrook were to plan for a uniform Electrostar fleet in the Thames Valley - now that we know that the additional order will be for Class 387s - and for an arrangement to be made for Eversholt's 365s to move up north instead?

I certainly wouldn't mind the 'Happy Trains' following in my trail

 

[westcoaster]

What about an expanded Gatwick express services to destinations in the west via the west London line and hence onto the GWML (Heathrow/reading)

 

[D365]

What about an expanded Gatwick express services to destinations in the west via the west London line and hence onto the GWML (Heathrow/reading)

Had to turn back to the south again. Typical

However that does get me thinking; if the HC 360/2s can be fitted with third-rail shoes, perhaps they might be of use on a via West London airport service. Depends what future is planned for Heathrow's rolling stock post-Crossrail.