Class 442s - Now at the end of the road and to be withdrawn permanently

[dorsetdesiro]

Keep dreaming, it's unlikely to happen.

Please get over it.

Ah, come on there, party poopers!

There's no harm in speculating or wishing, it's a free country, free speech you know? I do respect your opinions, if I don't agree with them then I will let this go over my head instead of trying shut you down...

Cheer up, it's a lovely evening, I'm going out for a meal so laters guys!

 

[43096]

Ah, come on there, party poopers!

There's no harm in speculating or wishing, it's a free country, free speech you know? I do respect your opinions, if I don't agree with them then I will let this go over my head instead of trying shut you down...

Cheer up, it's a lovely evening, I'm going out for a meal so laters guys!

But it becomes totally tedious when the same stuff keeps being trotted out time after time after time. Same applies to the unfunny “jokes” about uses for 442s.

 

[Wychwood93]

I would imagine a bit more powerful than the 455s, takes a good bit of oomph to lug 5 coaches at 100!

Presumably it's most components bar the motors.

The 442s could, in a previous life, be quite nippy - I have timed them, and indeed a 4-REP, at 110 - the best I have seen was 118 through Eastleigh and down to zero for a Parkway stop. Over a hundred from Hinton Admiral down to Christchurch (103 or 104 as I recall near Mp103) and numerous 90+ speeds west of Poole. All back in the late 80's etc. The current climate has the 'frowny' expression for that sort of pleasure. A pity.... I did have a couple of 129s on S.Wales 2+7 HSTs two weeks ago. Nice.

 

[D365]

It makes perfect sense when you explain it, but at first it seems strange that the same motors on the same train can sound so different.

At low speeds, it’s the electronics that create the sound, not the motors.

Any news on which motors the 442s are getting? Same type as the 350/444/450s?

Vossloh Kiepe, derived from the Class 455 package.

Ah, come on there, party poopers!

As above - the Class 442 is a running gag on this forum.

 

[pompeyfan]

The 442s could, in a previous life, be quite nippy - I have timed them, and indeed a 4-REP, at 110 - the best I have seen was 118 through Eastleigh and down to zero for a Parkway stop. Over a hundred from Hinton Admiral down to Christchurch (103 or 104 as I recall near Mp103) and numerous 90+ speeds west of Poole. All back in the late 80's etc. The current climate has the 'frowny' expression for that sort of pleasure. A pity.... I did have a couple of 129s on S.Wales 2+7 HSTs two weeks ago. Nice.

I could well imagine SR emus doing those numbers, usually after a liquid lunch, and possibly the guard driving. However I can’t see drivers nicking 4mph in 2018.

 

[James James]

I could well imagine SR emus doing those numbers, usually after a liquid lunch, and possibly the guard driving. However I can’t see drivers nicking 4mph in 2018.

No idea how those numbers were actually being measured, but if it was a GPS on a phone then they're likely to be garbage.

 

[swt_passenger]

In the existing 455 thread it was mentioned (in the post linked below) that the bought in motors Kiepe Electric (formerly Vossloh Kiepe) used on that job are by TSA (Traktionssysteme Austria). A press release on the Kiepe Electric website reckoned they were standard 3 phase motors adapted to fit the existing bogie mounting positions. Doesn’t necessarily follow that they’ll be similar on the 442 of course.

https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/class-455-with-ac-motors.119072/page-12#post-3126548

(By the way the Vossloh Kiepe brand of Knorr-Bremse had its name changed to Kiepe Electric during 2017...)

 

[Monty]

I could well imagine SR emus doing those numbers, usually after a liquid lunch, and possibly the guard driving. However I can’t see drivers nicking 4mph in 2018.

Trust me it still happens.

 

[hexagon789]

Trust me it still happens.

Very difficult to do though with so many trains having limiters, TPWS, ATP and Data recorders I should think.

 

[hexagon789]

You know when they change sound at 20mph? The overhead wire Desiros make a different sound there to the ones on third rail.

There is a reason from the sound chane at about 20 mph but I forget what it is

 

[dorsetdesiro]

So the 442 is considered by some as a joke right? How is this so?

Why deride the 442 as there are much worse stock out there, 442 vs 150 or 442 vs Pacer - no contest…

The 442 may be no IC125 or 222 or 390 or 395, old it may be but it does its job wonderfully which is why they’re not being thrown on to the scrapheap just yet.

Along with the IC125 & 158/9 etc, it can be a treat seeing BR relics still operating today and for those of us down South, the 442 still holds a special place in our hearts as we’ve grown up travelling to Waterloo and locally using these. I do remember its first appearance in Dorset in the 1980s how “cutting edge” it looked compared to the clapped out slam-door bangers that we used to call these the “bangy trains” when we were kids!

Also it was quite surreal seeing the modern 442s stopping at Bournemouth station when it was in a dilapidated state, damaged from the 1987 storm, with scaffolding everywhere for nearly 15 years. At the time it felt BR seemed to be old and falling apart with many old slam door trains running & grim looking liveries (outside NSE) & some concrete platform lighting columns were crumbling away, when compared to West Germany which had better infrastructure & stock, however on NSE with the debut of the 442 and Poole station getting an unusual & futuristic designed building that the future for rail travel in the UK looked hopeful…

For 30 years old, the 442 still looks great and when put next to the 444, the two look almost near identical - especially the SWR refurb 442 with its half black & half yellow ends - that the two will complement each other when working on the Portsmouth Direct line.

 

[Rail Blues]

So the 442 is considered by some as a joke right? How is this so?

Why deride the 442 as there are much worse stock out there, 442 vs 150 or 442 vs Pacer - no contest…

The 442 may be no IC125 or 222 or 390 or 395, old it may be but it does its job wonderfully which is why they’re not being thrown on to the scrapheap just yet.

Along with the IC125 & 158/9 etc, it can be a treat seeing BR relics still operating today and for those of us down South, the 442 still holds a special place in our hearts as we’ve grown up travelling to Waterloo and locally using these. I do remember its first appearance in Dorset in the 1980s how “cutting edge” it looked compared to the clapped out slam-door bangers that we used to call these the “bangy trains” when we were kids!

Also it was quite surreal seeing the modern 442s stopping at Bournemouth station when it was in a dilapidated state, damaged from the 1987 storm, with scaffolding everywhere for nearly 15 years. At the time it felt BR seemed to be old and falling apart with many old slam door trains running & grim looking liveries (outside NSE) & some concrete platform lighting columns were crumbling away, when compared to West Germany which had better infrastructure & stock, however on NSE with the debut of the 442 and Poole station getting an unusual & futuristic designed building that the future for rail travel in the UK looked hopeful…

For 30 years old, the 442 still looks great and when put next to the 444, the two look almost near identical - especially the SWR refurb 442 with its half black & half yellow ends - that the two will complement each other when working on the Portsmouth Direct line.

You're totally missing the point. The units themselves are not the butt of the joke. Rather it was some posters' far fetched schemes for them when their future looked in doubt. The more 'enthusiastic' of their number were utterly impervious to the million and one good reasons why they couldn't be used as LHCS on Trans Pennine routes. As I recall suggestions involved putting a class 37 in the middle of the set to provide motive power and buying up a load of class 33s from preservation to haul them.

It was usually good for a laugh, but occasionally the inability of some of the 442s more ardent fans to see the network as a massive trainset on which to run their favourite stock got slightly wearing.

 

[pompeyfan]

Trust me it still happens.

Interesting, I’ve never witnessed it myself, and a lot of drivers I know wouldn’t intentionally nick 4mph.

I’d love to carry on this conversation but I don’t think it’s one for public eyes though!

 

[theironroad]

You're totally missing the point. The units themselves are not the butt of the joke. Rather it was some posters' far fetched schemes for them when their future looked in doubt. The more 'enthusiastic' of their number were utterly impervious to the million and one good reasons why they couldn't be used as LHCS on Trans Pennine routes. As I recall suggestions involved putting a class 37 in the middle of the set to provide motive power and buying up a load of class 33s from preservation to haul them.

It was usually good for a laugh, but occasionally the inability of some of the 442s more ardent fans to see the network as a massive trainset on which to run their favourite stock got slightly wearing.

Dorsetdesiro seems to have joined railforums in october last year so, as you say, has rather missed the point and is taking some of the last few posts literally without the context of 442 comments from the last few years. Not really his or her fault but seems to have hit a nerve with a historic defence of the piggys.

 

[dorsetdesiro]

You're totally missing the point. The units themselves are not the butt of the joke. Rather it was some posters' far fetched schemes for them when their future looked in doubt. The more 'enthusiastic' of their number were utterly impervious to the million and one good reasons why they couldn't be used as LHCS on Trans Pennine routes. As I recall suggestions involved putting a class 37 in the middle of the set to provide motive power and buying up a load of class 33s from preservation to haul them.

It was usually good for a laugh, but occasionally the inability of some of the 442s more ardent fans to see the network as a massive trainset on which to run their favourite stock got slightly wearing.

Ah, I sense some sort of conflict between two factions here, the "trainset" enthusiasts and the serious "expert" conservatives into the technical nitty-gritty...

The 442 is very likely on its last hurrah, so you can't really hold this against others who are excited for their return also some people were undeniably upset to see these departing the Southern franchise which at that point it did look like curtains for them.

Imagine the delight for some of us when it was confirmed the 442s will run once more, then of course some of us may get carried away about this. I grew up with the 442 and with this likely to be their final decade on the tracks so it would be nice to see it heading to Weymouth, perhaps impossible now, every now and then and I definitely would make time if I know it were to operate west of Poole. For that reason, I am prepared to travel to Havant when the 442 gets back into service later this year.

For me, it would be a treat to see a 442 once more gliding over the panoramic Holes Bay viaduct in Poole like it used to do. I do regret not taking any photos before these were replaced by 444s however 444s gliding over the viaduct, as they do now, is a marvel to watch but not as nostalgic...

So let's enjoy their time in the next decade within this franchise and probably the early part of the next franchise.

As it is a free country, still no harm in speculating & hoping so if there are those conservatives easily irritated by postings they cannot relate to then they're very welcome to ignore me and others also welcome to have a good laugh. I just let the technical bits, like the innards of a train and timetabling, go over my head and I won't engage unless necessary like the SWR consultation.

Some of us would be interested in one thing and there will be others interested in different things. Give and take you know...

 

[swt_passenger]

There is a reason from the sound chane at about 20 mph but I forget what it is

It’s just another audible feature of the way the underlying switching frequencies used in the 3 phase traction converter sort themselves out. At some of the step changes in the pulse trains that are shaping the output waveforms they sound significantly different and more noticeable. People sometimes refer to it as an electronic gear change.

There are some YouTube videos that attempt to demonstrate with oscilloscope traces why this occurs, I’ll try and find one in a bit. This one’s a bit 1970s ‘open university’ in style, but might help:

But back to the earlier question there’s no logical reason why the modified 442 will sound like a 444 or 450, it’s far more likely to sound like an increased power 455, as it’s the same manufacturer.

 

[hexagon789]

It’s just another audible feature of the way the underlying switching frequencies used in the 3 phase traction converter sort themselves out. At some of the step changes in the pulse trains that are shaping the output waveforms they sound significantly different and more noticeable. People sometimes refer to it as an electronic gear change.

There are some YouTube videos that attempt to demonstrate with oscilloscope traces why this occurs, I’ll try and find one in a bit. This one’s a bit 1970s ‘open university’ in style, but might help:

But back to the earlier question there’s no logical reason why the modified 442 will sound like a 444 or 450, it’s far more likely to sound like an increased power 455, as it’s the same manufacturer.

Reminds me of Physics and using oscilloscopes. I would expect the 442s to end up sounding most like a 455 but not exactly the same as presumably they are retaining the single power car arrangement so the motors will be far more powerful.

 

[D365]

I would expect the 442s to end up sounding most like a 455 but not exactly the same as presumably they are retaining the single power car arrangement so the motors will be far more powerful.

Class 455s are also only one motor car per four car unit.

 

[hexagon789]

Class 455s are also only one motor car per four car unit.

Beg your pardon, so they do

I'm thinking of 450s.

 

[dan bennett]

442s getting the same traction package as 455s, but with bigger motors and the max current draw limit of the control equipment increased accordingly.

 

[swt_passenger]

442s getting the same traction package as 455s, but with bigger motors and the max current draw limit of the control equipment increased accordingly.

Do you know if the motors will come from the same people again, TSA, as I suggested might happen?

 

[cjmillsnun]

442s getting the same traction package as 455s, but with bigger motors and the max current draw limit of the control equipment increased accordingly.

Let’s hope they use better capacitors this time

 

[dan bennett]

Let’s hope they use better capacitors this time

The capacitor problem was traced down to one dodgy batch due to manufacturing problems, only a handful on a couple of units were affected

 

[theironroad]

Let’s hope they use better capacitors this time

I'm guessing you're referring to the fire on a unit a Guildford?

 

[swt_passenger]

I'm guessing you're referring to the fire on a unit a Guildford?

Capacitor explosion. There has been a detailed analysis by RAIB.

The traction equipment on this train had been recently retrofitted, replacing older equipment with a modern version. The failed capacitor was part of this replacement equipment. The design and installation of this new equipment was managed by a project team which had not adequately considered the risk of explosion caused by a capacitor with a manufacturing defect. Consequently, the train did not have any engineering safeguards to prevent such an explosion.
https://www.gov.uk/raib-reports/rep...ide-an-underframe-equipment-case-at-guildford

 

[winks]

Is there enough room at Fratton ? Can’t fit that many 442s there, thought there was only one night storrman there too lol!

 

[MotorcycleAlan]

Presumably in my simple mind there will be space freed up by the removal of 444/450 no longer in use on that line?

 

[swt_passenger]

Presumably in my simple mind there will be space freed up by the removal of 444/450 no longer in use on that line?

That’s part of it, but there are also known plans for extra stabling at Fratton, it came up in another thread a while ago. No public details but there was a suggestion it involved the area currently used for DMU stabling. At one stage it was suggested GWR would be going elsewhere, and of course SWR may not be using DMUs in the area either...

Section 6 of the FMSWT track access application mentions an additional 3 x 12 car roads at Fratton:
http://orr.gov.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0004/25582/first-mtr-swt-s17-app-form.pdf

 

[moley]

Yes, 3x 12 car third rail roads are to be installed with DMU berthing moving to Eastleigh. Changes due to be ready for December. Believe GWR changes are tied to conversion to Class 165/166 operation as an extra 8 carriages need to berth and there isn’t room on the DMU roads.

Also, only 6x10 car units need to be berthed at Fratton each night. Rest need to form first three fast services on the way down.

 

[Wychwood93]

Trust me it still happens.

Thanks for the tacit support - nowadays I use a decent Garmin, which works in most stock, not 390's and Voyagera and some others. Back in the day I timed to those milepost things - with due regard, when the information became available, to long and short quarter miles - esp. on LSWR on both routes west of Basingstoke. Current Garmin based speeds, for example my recent GWR 129s, can be backed up by point-to-point averages between timing points. I do not have a phone capable of GPS stuff, but have sat opposite a friend whose phone speeds matched my Garmin ones. We were just trying it out.

I spent many tens of thousand miles commuting on 442s and wish the 'new' version was down here in the Christchurch area. An open day in Bournemouth in May 1988 - you could walk under them etc. Who else remembers that?