Class 442s - Now at the end of the road and to be withdrawn permanently

[43096]

The traction equipment is basically life expired so for them to be being refurbished it points towards their owners wanting them used as loco hauled stock. They can never be converted to AC as you'd compromise the crash structure and the motor coach probably wouldn't be able to take the weight of a transformer.

If the electrical kit is so "life expired", why have GBRf/Wabtec overhauled similar vintage Class 73s for many years further use using exactly the same traction motors as the 442s?

 

[Dave1987]

The traction equipment is basically life expired so for them to be being refurbished it points towards their owners wanting them used as loco hauled stock. They can never be converted to AC as you'd compromise the crash structure and the motor coach probably wouldn't be able to take the weight of a transformer.

Ok but the question still remains, why some were most insistent that they would be scrapped and actively ridiculing anyone who suggested otherwise. Yet the owners are ploughing money into them! One certainly needs to take what people post on this forum with an enormous pinch of salt.

 

[gimmea50anyday]

Life expired doesnt mean scrap. It just means so much repair and maintenance is due that it isnt necessarily cost-effective when compared to replacement. Technology moves on, components degrade, new may well be more energy efficient or easier to repaor. Components can however be refurbished or re-manufactured which in the case of a motor rewinding the armature with new copper, new brushes and polish or electrolyte the contacts and you have a virtually brand new motor. Replace the engine with a smaller but more powerful unit and so on.

Take the analogy of a house. The brick wall smay stay the same but how many times in ita life will it get redecorated, habe new windows fitted or rewired? Replumbed? Window frames rot and become life-expired. So you fix the rot, renew the frames or replace the windows completely.

Incidentally some of the 432 REPs were actually the last mk1 slamdoor stock built and post date the HST prototype! They were in service less than 20 years and as little as 15 when withdrawn. What led to their early demise was the restaurant/buffet cars were converted LHCS and ironically some of the oldest. The change in food regulations and hygiene standards made the buffets obsolete along with the age of the kitchen fittings. Thw relative young age of the traction equipment, the availability and commonality of parts and the familiarity of the equipment made refurbishing and reuse more cost effective than fitting new, the kit fitted to the 319/321 would have been used but didnt have sufficient traction power otherwise.

 

[CosherB]

Are we now having a 442 love-in?!

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Who wants them as DC units? To run anywhere under their own power they're probably going to need the entire traction package replacing

There's 6 TOCs that I can think of that at least in part run on 3rd rail:

* SWT
* Southern
* SouthEastern
* LO
* Thameslink
* MerseyRail

You could probably rule them out from most of that list straight away as they wouldn't be compatible with existing stock for most of them. If GTR were interested in them I'd don't think they'd be sending them north for storage.

 

[reddragon]

I am going to build a wall . . . and the Mexicans are going to pay for it!

I here that Angel trains have found a use for the 442s . . . . . lol

 

[Bletchleyite]

What they really are is Mk3 coaches with most of the problems (bad seats, bad lighting, vestibule doors, manual exterior doors) fixed. You can see why people like that.

 

[D365]

What they really are is Mk3 coaches with most of the problems (bad seats, bad lighting, vestibule doors, manual exterior doors) fixed. You can see why people like that.

However like I said, to convert them to LHCS would cost more than adapting existing Mk3 stock to 2020 standard.

 

[RobShipway]

Are we now having a 442 love-in?!

It looks like it!

 

[spark001uk]

Anyway... back to topic. There's two moves booked today, 5L46 Eastleigh - Ely (2418 maybe?), and 5O86 Three Bridges Thameslink Sidings to Eastleigh. Oddly the latter is going the old route again via Clapham Staines etc, even though they cleared the coastal route.

 

[Dave1987]

Are we now having a 442 love-in?!

Nope, I don't know anything about these trains, I'm not bothered what happens to them. But having read the animosity towards those who believe they still have use from those who believe they should be sent for scrap it definitely does make you question what the point of this section of the forum is for and exactly how much to believe. Are those who were adamant that these trains were destined to be scrapped going to admit they were wrong?

 

[spark001uk]

5L46, 1030 Eastleigh - Ely. 47815 + 2404.

5O86, 1249 Three Bridges Sidings - Eastleigh. 37884 + 2411.
As said earlier not sure why that didn't go the coastal route from tb.

 

[spark001uk]

10th Nov L/E 0O86 from Ely to Eastleigh has been cancelled and replaced with 5O86. Must have changed their mind and wanted another unit brought back down.

Add:
11th Nov Eastleigh - Ely drag got canned, loco issue.

 

[Class377/5]

I here that Angel trains have found a use for the 442s . . . . . lol

Indeed. Just who will use them for this purpose is in question at present

 

[50047]

5L46, 1030 Eastleigh - Ely. 47815 + 2404.

5O86, 1249 Three Bridges Sidings - Eastleigh. 37884 + 2411.
As said earlier not sure why that didn't go the coastal route from tb.

It didn't go the coast route as Network Rail have decided that the moves can no longer be propelled into the works from the station. It could last time and has been done myriad times in the past, but all of a sudden its too much trouble. No more will be going that way either. Still, it only took NR four months to clear the route for dead haulage so at least it wasn't a complete waste of time
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

10th Nov L/E 0O86 from Ely to Eastleigh has been cancelled and replaced with 5O86. Must have changed their mind and wanted another unit brought back down.

Add:
11th Nov Eastleigh - Ely drag got canned, loco issue.

2423 has to come back again for repairs.

Friday 11/11 to Ely cancelled as 2411 had a tantrum and wouldn't release it brakes. Will go now instead on 18/11 with 47815. 2423 or 2418 may join in also

 

[spark001uk]

Friday 11/11 to Ely cancelled as 2411 had a tantrum and wouldn't release it brakes. Will go now instead on 18/11 with 47815. 2423 or 2418 may join in also

2411 was joined by 2418 and the haulage was 812, AFAIK 815 is up at Papworth still.

 

[Blaahh]

442s will be running on electrified preserved lines in 2116, theyll outlive all of us

 

[1179_Clee2]

New RAIL magazine Number 814 page 31

The Class 442's could form part of the new South West Trains franchise, RAIL understands.
Eighteen of the 24 five car third rail electric multiple units are off-lease. Their owner Angel Trains told RAIL that there were refurbishment plans, but did not elaborate.
Two bidders are battling to win the SWT franchise which will be awarded next year.

 

[gimmea50anyday]

Without trying to sound like "another use for the 442" i suppose the potential of converting some 8 car 450 workings into 10 car 444 or 442 diagrams thereby freeing up those 450s for strengthening other 4 or even 8 car diagrams up to 12 car cannot be overlooked. The clincher I guess would be accomodating the extended lengths at waterloo along with the age of the traction equipment. Maybe there is scope for a retractioning a la 455 style if the need has been identified. Current train manufacturers have significant order books to fulfil and the current 444/450 fleet will be due major works soon so additional trains short term leaves only the 442 as an option

 

[Suraggu]

Without trying to sound like "another use for the 442" i suppose the potential of converting some 8 car 450 workings into 10 car 444 or 442 diagrams thereby freeing up those 450s for strengthening other 4 or even 8 car diagrams up to 12 car cannot be overlooked. The clincher I guess would be accomodating the extended lengths at waterloo along with the age of the traction equipment. Maybe there is scope for a retractioning a la 455 style if the need has been identified. Current train manufacturers have significant order books to fulfil and the current 444/450 fleet will be due major works soon so additional trains short term leaves only the 442 as an option

It makes sense.

Remove class 450's from Portsmouth direct and Poole services and replace with the 442/444 fleet and use the displaced 450's on strengthening and increased frequencies on the inner routes.

Perhaps the class 442 will get a Hitachi retraction package as well if they are going to be around for the medium term.

 

[theironroad]

As the introduction of 707s is going to release a lot of 450s then I can't see Swt or first/MTR taking the 442s back. From a maintenance point of view would be silly having such a small niche fleet when Siemens are almost running the show.

I guess any return of 442 to swml would be in the guise of the alliance rail plan for open access discussed elsewhere.

 

[1179_Clee2]

As the introduction of 707s is going to release a lot of 450s then I can't see Swt or first/MTR taking the 442s back. From a maintenance point of view would be silly having such a small niche fleet when Siemens are almost running the show.

I guess any return of 442 to swml would be in the guise of the alliance rail plan for open access discussed elsewhere.

Are both bids for the SWT franchise in? IF they are then the DfT will know IF one of the bids does wants to use Class 442's. IF true the DfT might have a problem. There have been whispers about loco hauled 442's on other franchises, but IF still required in the South and with the slow progress with the GWML electrification. What happens next, NO loco hauled Class 442's and late unit cascades.

 

[swt_passenger]

Without trying to sound like "another use for the 442" i suppose the potential of converting some 8 car 450 workings into 10 car 444 or 442 diagrams thereby freeing up those 450s for strengthening other 4 or even 8 car diagrams up to 12 car cannot be overlooked. The clincher I guess would be accomodating the extended lengths at waterloo along with the age of the traction equipment. Maybe there is scope for a retractioning a la 455 style if the need has been identified. Current train manufacturers have significant order books to fulfil and the current 444/450 fleet will be due major works soon so additional trains short term leaves only the 442 as an option

The 444 and 450 'major works' are already happening surely? Its why they've been coming out of Eastleigh works with overhauled bogies for the last two years?

As has been pointed out in other recent threads, there are more than enough 450s released to bring all shoulder peak trains up to full length, the high peak hour in the morning is almost all already at full length.

In a post in the SWML capacity discussion a few weeks back TEW found only 9 am peak trains not running at full length:

0520 Southampton Central-Waterloo 0651 (5-444)
0542 Alton-Waterloo 0654 (8-450)
0554 Basingstoke-Waterloo 0702 (5-444)
0600 Haslemere-Waterloo 0706 (8-450)
0623 Basingstoke-Waterloo 0729 (8-450)
0642 Basingstoke-Waterloo 0739 (8-450)
0752 Basingstoke-Waterloo 0857 (5-444)
0710 Southampton Central-Waterloo 0908 (5-444)
0814 Alton-Waterloo 0919 (8-450)

If those four 5.444s in the list were combined into two 10.444 pairs the two remaining trains could be 12.450, requires 6 x 450.
If the 8.450s in the list were extended to 12.450 there's another 5 x 450.
So I've found homes for 11 x 450 on am peak arrivals, and that's about it for strengthening in the morning peak. There are obviously more trains that arrive extremely early, and others that are still arriving towards 1000 that can also be lengthened.

I still cannot see there being space on the network for a random number of spare 442s, once the 707s are in service, planned to be completed within 2017.

 

[The Ham]

Are both bids for the SWT franchise in? IF they are then the DfT will know IF one of the bids does wants to use Class 442's. IF true the DfT might have a problem. There have been whispers about loco hauled 442's on other franchises, but IF still required in the South and with the slow progress with the GWML electrification. What happens next, NO loco hauled Class 442's and late unit cascades.

Of course there's always the "option" of loco hauled 442's away from the third rail (how likely it is another matter)

 

[theironroad]

Are both bids for the SWT franchise in? IF they are then the DfT will know IF one of the bids does wants to use Class 442's. IF true the DfT might have a problem. There have been whispers about loco hauled 442's on other franchises, but IF still required in the South and with the slow progress with the GWML electrification. What happens next, NO loco hauled Class 442's and late unit cascades.

I believe both bids are in and now being evaluated.

A decision is due in February 2017 and the start date will be in August 2017 (the 19th off the top of my head but happy to be corrected.

Totally absurdly, the new franchise will officially start during the major blockade at Waterloo for the platform lengthening works.

I'm beyond words on this to be honest, as this is the biggest disruption to services at Waterloo in decades and is being advertised already for people to adjust their travel plans and potentially the first privatised franchise could be changing hands in the middle of it.....

 

[Class377/5]

As the introduction of 707s is going to release a lot of 450s then I can't see Swt or first/MTR taking the 442s back. From a maintenance point of view would be silly having such a small niche fleet when Siemens are almost running the show.

I guess any return of 442 to swml would be in the guise of the alliance rail plan for open access discussed elsewhere.

One bidder has proposed the 442s so who knows.

 

[43096]

Totally absurdly, the new franchise will officially start during the major blockade at Waterloo for the platform lengthening works.



I'm beyond words on this to be honest, as this is the biggest disruption to services at Waterloo in decades and is being advertised already for people to adjust their travel plans and potentially the first privatised franchise could be changing hands in the middle of it.....

Absolutely correct. It is utter muppetry to even consider changing it at this point.

It is to be hoped that Stagecoach retain the franchise as they've done well. No operator is perfect, but SWT has been a consistently well run operation for many years. We really, really, really do not want First.

 

[The Ham]

The question in my head is how long for?

The reason for that thinking is that 18 units could allow the release of 1/3 of the 444's at a time. In that if you did that there could be scope to do a semi major refit of them, potentially including extra seats by the removal of the micro buffet (which is rarely if ever used now). Three rows of seats (2+2) would gain you an extra 12 seats (which is broadly what would fit in that space, although it may be 4 rows).

That would give you a bit more capacity without compromising much.

It could be that there are other options that could further improve the layout of the 444's and by able to do them in sizable chunks could bring the full class back into service sooner.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

In a post in the SWML capacity discussion a few weeks back TEW found only 9 am peak trains not running at full length:



If those four 5.444s in the list were combined into two 10.444 pairs the two remaining trains could be 12.450, requires 6 x 450.
If the 8.450s in the list were extended to 12.450 there's another 5 x 450.
So I've found homes for 11 x 450 on am peak arrivals, and that's about it for strengthening in the morning peak. There are obviously more trains that arrive extremely early, and others that are still arriving towards 1000 that can also be lengthened.

I still cannot see there being space on the network for a random number of spare 442s, once the 707s are in service, planned to be completed within 2017.

There's also the 0643 Southampton to London 0839 (5-444) and 0753 Basingstoke to London 0853 (5-444). Although they would only use up another 2 units.

However it's not just trains heading into London in the morning peak that are busy there are trains heading away from London too.

As well as during the day there are still quite a few 4 or 5 coach services that could do with being longer, some of the fast services which call at Farnborough and services through Guildford. With more units these can also be strengthened without exceeding unit milages.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Of course there's always the "option" of loco hauled 442's away from the third rail (how likely it is another matter)

Going back to the slightly crazy suggestion of loco hauled 442's, a return run to Exeter would require 8 units (with a further 4 to run it doubled up to Salisbury).

Then a further 4 to Salisbury (+2 for doubled up to Basingstoke).

Which at 18 would leave no spare units but every single service run full length all day between Basingstoke and London and every Exeter service is full length between Salisbury and London, so is probably some score to run shorter services during the day to enable there be some spare units.

Alternatively you retain a few 158/159's to run services where they extend beyond the above (I.e. those to Bristol and Yeovil Pen Mill/Westbury) and extend the double running of the 442's further (say Yeovil rather than Salisbury and Salisbury rather than Basingstoke) and/or extend the services further (I.e Yeovil rather than Salisbury and on an equally crazy level Okehampton rather Exeter).

 

[gimmea50anyday]

Hmm... forgot to take the 707s into account. However these do still have the best part of 2 year lead time to completion. 442s are available now. Although to be fair and in their current condition it would be crazy and in the peak suicidal to use them as they are now!

Be interesting to see whats in store for them especially as TPE loco hauled was rejected yet loco hauled is still being considered...

 

[D365]

Be interesting to see whats in store for them especially as TPE loco hauled was rejected yet loco hauled is still being considered...

Don't worry, we've already been through all the rumours