The 458/5s and 456 projects were separate. 10-carriage trains for the Windsor lines was tendered, and the 458/5 option was selected over lengthening Desiros. AFAIK the transfer of the 456s was just simply SWT taking up the lease once Southern released them. Desiros weren't on the cards. However in the long term, once Waterloo platforms 1-4 are lengthened, additional 10-carriage trains will likely be needed for Surbuban services.
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Class 456's on the move?
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No they're not. They're both under the umbrella of HLOS and costed as such. They may have been initiated at separate times but they are very much for the same purpose - the 10 car suburban railway. The upcoming order for new EMUs is the third auspice of the HLOS.
swt_passenger
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My saved copy of the original OJEU tender shows it was for 120-140 vehicles to operate in 5 car formation. The 458/5s only just provide half that requirement, I'd assumed the 456s were a 'make weight' in the attempt to meet the original requirement, but they still fall a bit short.
samuelmorris
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I hadn't heard about this - what are these supplementing?
swt_passenger
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10 car services to Reading, and further 10 car inner suburban services on the routes through Wimbledon will be the main reasons for the new tender. It is expected that the Desiros operating the 8 car Reading service in the interim (i.e. after the 458s have transferred to Windsor, Hounslow and Weybridge) will then become available to internally cascade within the franchise. (Other permutations are possible...)
The OJEU order was widely reported around August/September last year, here's an extract form the tender:
The OJEU order was widely reported around August/September last year, here's an extract form the tender:
Goldfish62
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Indeed, the ED of SWT has stated that these units will be for Windsor/Houslow/Weybridge, allowing the cascade of the 458/5s to the Reading line.
Given that 455s (and presumably 319s) cannot viably be fitted with SDO it certainly looks like the additional rolling stock will be new, not cascaded, as the Windsor lines have a huge number of short platforms which cannot economically be extended.
samuelmorris
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Surely the 458/5s are far more than is needed for just Reading services? That's what got me curious. I can understand 8->10 car needing additional stock on other routes.
swt_passenger
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They are definitely more than is needed for a straightforward 2 tph to Reading - the fleet is used on other routes as well as 'Reading' with only 30 of them, and the /5 fleet is 36 strong. But they've also been tweaked to be 75 mph units, which presumably is to make them suitable for use on any inner suburban route as well as Reading. They could easily go back on the Ascot-Guildford as single units...
456
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the problem I don't understand is swt said they extend all stations on the Hounslow loop line & the Windsor line for the 458/5's. so far sunnymeads, datchet, Isleworth, and Feltham cant fit the trains into the platforms. swt seem to want to extend there trains before extending platforms if you don't believe me look at alton on weekday peak time
swt_passenger
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No, SWT have never said they would extend all platforms.
There are many pages of details about the ten car HLOS project in the quarterly updates to the CP4 enhancement delivery plan, and the use of SDO at various stations, such as those you list, has been consistent throughout the period of about 5years since it was first published.
samuelmorris
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When I originally ran this I didn't realise there were extra peak Reading services in the evening. If I've added it up right it looks like they'd need 24 units for Reading including the peaks, and 10 units for Windsor, which would total 34/36 if 10-car 458 sets were used exclusively on both. Seems a little on the tight side, but then, is the intention to fully displace 450s from Windsor as well?
Goldfish62
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There are two more AM peak and one more PM peak Reading line services being introduced either in December or May (0624 and 0654 from Reading, 1755 from Waterloo), plus there are currently 3 450s diagrammed on Reading services. That would bring the total needed to 29. Maybe Guildford to Ascot would go over to 458/5 as well - that's another 5 units, making a total of 34, with 2 spares.
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cjmillsnun
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I think DaFT made the decisions in the end.
456
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do you know if swt will extend Feltham station because it looks silly that a big station like Feltham is not as long as whitton which is much less important station in terms of connections
Feltham has a level crossing one end and a road bridge the other, Whitton was empty at one end which made it easier. No idea if they have any plans though.
Am I the only person that thinks they should have gone for 12-car platforms in one go for future flexibility? As usual it got bogged down by the short-term money saving, the extended platforms look very cheaply constructed, more like temporary platforms rather than more substantial brick/concrete structures :neutral:
Am I the only person that thinks they should have gone for 12-car platforms in one go for future flexibility? As usual it got bogged down by the short-term money saving, the extended platforms look very cheaply constructed, more like temporary platforms rather than more substantial brick/concrete structures :neutral:
swt_passenger
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Feltham requires a level crossing closure. As discussed previously this requires the co-operation of the local authority. Lengthening is only down to be 'reviewed' in conjunction with the planned Feltham area re-signalling during the current control period, i.e. CP5 (2014-2019).
swt_passenger
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It won't happen - simple as. Case closed!
I'd agree that's definitely the way it looks. The text I quoted is probably just their way of letting people down gently - a sort of stalling move...
Quite. There's a reason review processes are often people poring over the use of singular words so that they can weasel out of it later
SansPareil
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Are the 456s still confined to Ascot to Guildford at the moment, and the associated early morning run from Richmond? I assume they haven't been working any of the Inner suburban services normally allocated to 455s, or been working in multiple with 455s yet?
swt_passenger
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The early service from Richmond is reported on RTT as running from Wimbledon Park depot sidings via Waterloo platform 15, which should mean it is visible at Waterloo every morning; but I can't vouch for it actually happening, that's a bit early for me!
A bit early?!
I'm fairly certain I've seen theme sitting there one morning at the time they'd be there. There were a lot of crowds and all I could make out for definite were the front coupling pipes, but I was in a rush and it was a glance back so I could be wrong.
They haven't worked anything other than Ascot-Guildford services yet, and I doubt they will before the May TT change at the earliest. I'd imagine there is still a lot of crew training to be done before a wider rollout is possible.
swt_passenger
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A bit early?!
Believe me, if you are relying on a Network Card and Super Offpeaks, and live near Southampton, that's very early!
Believe me, if you are relying on a Network Card and Super Offpeaks, and live near Southampton, that's very early!
Ah, I'll let you off then!
wimbledonpete
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I saw them passing Queenstown Road on the down this morning as my train was heading for Waterloo.
I've also seen the 4.456 set in that area, but pulling out of Clapham Junction just as my train pulled in at about 0740 (I was on the 0714 Hounslow-Waterloo :P)
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This is the working http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/W35084/2014/04/16/advanced
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Juniper Driver
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Seen them at Ascot and down the Sheppy branch training runs.
I've seen one or two formations when the 456's were still used by the SR, one at Sydenham, one I think (not sure) South Croydon. (Southern also did 456+455+456)
Many were used on Horsham services.
When i'd go to the station i'd just peer up the fence and listen to the announcements. I've seen many 456's going to Horsham, and even some Dorking fasts from/to Clapham Junction that don't call at Ewell East, but surprisingly do call at BoxHill.
I've got to admit, when I see them speeding past at a good 50-60mph at Wandsworth or Wallington-Waddon, they make an impressive noise.
Here's one thing... I'd occasionally smell bleach or something on the 456s sometimes.
Kite159
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The 456s made a better noise coming out of Aldershot than the 450s
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