Class 465/466 return to the Victoria - Ashford services

[Economist]

Links 1 and 2 at Grove Park sign both 375s and 377s, all Charing X drivers sign 375s, not sure about 377s since they didn't feature in any CX diagrams. That said, a 377 at Grove Park was a very rare occurrence.

Lots of 377s were present in Grosvenor Shed near Victoria and since there was often spare siding capacity there, I presume that's where any out of service ones would be moved to.

 

[Stephen42]

I remember Gillingham signing for them in the days of the FCC/SE joint Bedford to Rochester and Ashford services, but assumed they only really used them to Ashford now.

On that basis alone, the fact the 377s aren’t centred on just Gillingham slow and Ashford to Victoria work seems odd to me.

There's very few Gillingham slow or Ashford to Victoria services which are diagrammed as 375s.

Other potentially larger considerations than drivers who sign 375s but not 377s are getting the 377s to Selhurst for maintenance and what mainline diagrams networkers can suitably work.

 

[brad465]

Mark 1 eyeballs show a fair few instances of 4/377 but not normally 4/375 passing Bearsted of a cross section of times during the day, all days a week.

Very few instances of 375s, mostly 8/377s, some 465/466 combos. Have never made an effort to try to work out which services are what.

That said, no idea now of course what they use on the Maidstone to Charing Cross trains. I assume it’s only 375s?

A couple of weeks back there were a few days a 465 + 466 set worked some of the MDE-CHX diagrams, but this was relief working in addition to the usual 6-car Networker diagrams. I once got a 4 car 375 on the MDE-CHX service (08:13), but often 377s do it. I wonder if the increase in 4 car services is down to the service frequency going up on the Maidstone East line (2tph off peak, 3tph peak west of Maidstone), but the rolling stock availability is the same so some services are shorter?

 

[Class 466]

A couple of weeks back there were a few days a 465 + 466 set worked some of the MDE-CHX diagrams, but this was relief working in addition to the usual 6-car Networker diagrams. I once got a 4 car 375 on the MDE-CHX service (08:13), but often 377s do it. I wonder if the increase in 4 car services is down to the service frequency going up on the Maidstone East line (2tph off peak, 3tph peak west of Maidstone), but the rolling stock availability is the same so some services are shorter?

The frequency hasn’t increased (if anything it’s reduced). It’s 1tph Ashford to Victoria, 1tph Maidstone East to Charing X off peak. Peak time also saw a reduction in the number of services compared to May 2022.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

Quite sure I noticed a 465 last night on the 23:25 Victoria to Ashford, and a 465/0 rather than a 465/9 at that.

The frequency hasn’t increased (if anything it’s reduced). It’s 1tph Ashford to Victoria, 1tph Maidstone East to Charing X off peak. Peak time also saw a reduction in the number of services compared to May 2022.

It is a reduction, as you’re now only running one service of the 2 as far as Maidstone, so you’re not having to include an extra circuit.

 

[Stephen42]

A couple of weeks back there were a few days a 465 + 466 set worked some of the MDE-CHX diagrams, but this was relief working in addition to the usual 6-car Networker diagrams. I once got a 4 car 375 on the MDE-CHX service (08:13), but often 377s do it. I wonder if the increase in 4 car services is down to the service frequency going up on the Maidstone East line (2tph off peak, 3tph peak west of Maidstone), but the rolling stock availability is the same so some services are shorter?

It's more about reducing vehicle mileage, both metro and mainline have planned 4 car formations between the peaks and late nights on some services. A lot of the time a train splits forming the next two with the next arrival going to a stabling location so those won't be due to lack of trains. There may be some availability issues as well causing shorter than planned formations.

 

[brad465]

Deleted

 

[brad465]

The thread on the West Malling fire is locked, so I've put this here: 466028 has been seen heading empty back to Gillingham, wedged between 2x 465s, seen here passing back through West Malling, with visible damage:

 

[brad465]

Today I travelled on 465006 on the 09:55 Ashford-Victoria (late running due to train safety inspection), which must be a one-off Sunday relief working (along with other diagrams it feeds into/from).

 

[evergreenadam]

Is 6 coaches enough at peak times on this line?

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Is 6 coaches enough at peak times on this line?

See this is the thing, I've been on some really rather busy double Electrostars on this route, so I'm not so sure it would be.

 

[Class 466]

See this is the thing, I've been on some really rather busy double Electrostars on this route, so I'm not so sure it would be.

A 6 car networker does however have more seats than a 8 car 377. And especially more than a 8 car 375

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

A 6 car networker does however have more seats than a 8 car 377. And especially more than a 8 car 375

Of course yes, but how much merit does this have when we're talking in lieu of two whole carriages?

 

[D7666]

Of course yes, but how much merit does this have when we're talking in lieu of two whole carriages?

Quite a lot to those who have a seat on the 465/466 but would not have one on 375s.

 

[Kite159]

A 6 car networker does however have more seats than a 8 car 377. And especially more than a 8 car 375

However as it's 3+2 seating, most passengers will prefer to stand in the vestibules rather than squeezing into the middle seat.

 

[Class 466]

However as it's 3+2 seating, most passengers will prefer to stand in the vestibules rather than squeezing into the middle seat.

I commuted on networkers for years and this genuinely didn’t happen, people would fill all the seats.

 

[brad465]

Is 6 coaches enough at peak times on this line?

The current diagrams avoid the core of the peak, with departures out of Victoria at 15:25 and 19:25. This though doesn't include any relief diagrams that may end up in the peak.

 

[urpert]

I commuted on networkers for years and this genuinely didn’t happen, people would fill all the seats.

There’s a particular shoulders-forward stance adopted by the broader amongst us when sliding into the middle seat. I don’t miss it.

 

[brad465]

I know it's not the Ashford service here, but as previous threads are locked: I saw two different 465 formations on VIC-Dover Priory services today, one was 465906+465/0/1?, seen on the 09:42 VIC-DVP, another was 465905+another unkown BREL 465 that was on the 11:42 VIC-DVP, and diagrams following on from them. I thought 465s only usually went to Dover on Sundays, so is this new or a one-off?

 

[CFRAIL]

I know it's not the Ashford service here, but as previous threads are locked: I saw two different 465 formations on VIC-Dover Priory services today, one was 465906+465/0/1?, seen on the 09:42 VIC-DVP, another was 465905+another unkown BREL 465 that was on the 11:42 VIC-DVP, and diagrams following on from them. I thought 465s only usually went to Dover on Sundays, so is this new or a one-off?

There were only 2 trains per hour on the Chatham mainline on Saturday due to Charing Cross and Cannon Street being closed. The XX:40 VIC-RAM and the XX:42 VIC-GLM services were extended to DVP, hence why some diagrams were 465 workings.

 

[brad465]

What's the situation regarding Networker diagrams on this route? This evening I saw 2 different sets operating on the VIC-AFK services: the usual 15:25 VIC-AFK (and subsequent diagrams), but also the 15:30 AFK-VIC, which I travelled on between Borough Green and Swanley (465919+466042). Is this a new diagram for the current timetable, or a relief operation as often occurred in the last year?

 

[Class 466]

What's the situation regarding Networker diagrams on this route? This evening I saw 2 different sets operating on the VIC-AFK services: the usual 15:25 VIC-AFK (and subsequent diagrams), but also the 15:30 AFK-VIC, which I travelled on between Borough Green and Swanley (465919+466042). Is this a new diagram for the current timetable, or a relief operation as often occurred in the last year?

Current diagrams below, still Monday to Friday only:

All 6 cars

Diagram 1

5A06 04+30 Ashford Down Sidings to Ashford
2A06 0505 Ashford to Victoria
2N12 0655 Victoria to Ashford
2A22 0855 Ashford to Victoria
5A22 Victoria to Victoria Sidings
5N46 15+00 Victoria Sidings to Victoria
2N46 1525 Victoria to Ashford
2A56 1727 Ashford to Victoria
2N62 1925 Victoria to Ashford
2A72 2127 Ashford to Victoria
2N78 2325 Victoria to Ashford
5N78 Ashford to Ashford Down Sidings

Diagram 2 (Temporary to cover shortage of working 377s… surprise surprise)

5A08 04+58 Ashford Down Sidings to Ashford
2A08 0527 Ashford to Victoria
2N14 0725 Victoria to Ashford
5N14 09+06 Ashford to Ashford Down Sidings
5A48 15+04 Ashford Down Sidings to Ashford
2A48 1530 Ashford to Victoria
2N54 1725 Victoria to Ashford
2A64 1927 Ashford to Victoria
2N70 2125 Victoria to Ashford
5N70 Ashford to Ashford Down Sidings

Diagram 3

5A20 07+59 Ashford Down Sidings to Ashford
2A20 0828 Ashford to Victoria
5U30 10+15 Victoria to Grove Park Shed

Diagram 4

5N60 06+20 Victoria to Maidstone East
1U60 0743 Maidstone East to Charing X
5U60 08+57 Charing X to Ashford Down Sidings

 

[MCR247]

Current diagrams below, still Monday to Friday only:

All 6 cars

Diagram 1

5A06 04+30 Ashford Down Sidings to Ashford
2A06 0505 Ashford to Victoria
2N12 0655 Victoria to Ashford
2A22 0855 Ashford to Victoria
5A22 Victoria to Victoria Sidings
5N46 15+00 Victoria Sidings to Victoria
2N46 1525 Victoria to Ashford
2A56 1727 Ashford to Victoria
2N62 1925 Victoria to Ashford
2A72 2127 Ashford to Victoria
2N78 2325 Victoria to Ashford
5N78 Ashford to Ashford Down Sidings

Diagram 2 (Temporary to cover shortage of working 377s… surprise surprise)

5A08 04+58 Ashford Down Sidings to Ashford
2A08 0527 Ashford to Victoria
2N14 0725 Victoria to Ashford
5N14 09+06 Ashford to Ashford Down Sidings
5A48 15+04 Ashford Down Sidings to Ashford
2A48 1530 Ashford to Victoria
2N54 1725 Victoria to Ashford
2A64 1927 Ashford to Victoria
2N70 2125 Victoria to Ashford
5N70 Ashford to Ashford Down Sidings

Diagram 3

5A20 07+59 Ashford Down Sidings to Ashford
2A20 0828 Ashford to Victoria
5U30 10+15 Victoria to Grove Park Shed

Diagram 4

5N60 06+20 Victoria to Maidstone East
1U60 0743 Maidstone East to Charing X
5U60 08+57 Charing X to Ashford Down Sidings

Out of curiosity, how does a set get from Grove Park to Victoria to work diagram 4?

 

[Stephen42]

Out of curiosity, how does a set get from Grove Park to Victoria to work diagram 4?

Those are the mainline diagrams for the Maidstone line, metro diagrams fill in the gaps. There's 5D72 23+47 Sevenoaks to Victoria and 5U82 00+19 Lewisham to Victoria (formed from a Hayes to Lewisham train) which are both Networkers with a 466 in. One forms diagram 4 above the next day with the other doing metro work.

 

[Robski_]

Out of curiosity, how does a set get from Grove Park to Victoria to work diagram 4?

5N59 from Victoria Grosvenor Shed forms 5N60.

 

[MCR247]

Those are the mainline diagrams for the Maidstone line, metro diagrams fill in the gaps. There's 5D72 23+47 Sevenoaks to Victoria and 5U82 00+19 Lewisham to Victoria (formed from a Hayes to Lewisham train) which are both Networkers with a 466 in. One forms diagram 4 above the next day with the other doing metro work.

5N59 from Victoria Grosvenor Shed forms 5N60.

Thanks you both, makes perfect sense now

 

[brad465]

With the June timetable change details confirmed, are the details of what, if any, Networker diagrams continuing on this route known?

 

[Class 466]

With the June timetable change details confirmed, are the details of what, if any, Networker diagrams continuing on this route known?

I know there’s still planned to be some sets on the Maidstone East Line- they’re required with the increase in Charing Cross - Maidstone East -Ashford peak services.

 

[brad465]

I know there’s still planned to be some sets on the Maidstone East Line- they’re required with the increase in Charing Cross - Maidstone East -Ashford peak services.

Thanks for this, if the speculated 377 move to SE goes ahead in December, I imagine the June timetable will be the last one they feature on this route.