Class 701 'Aventra' trains for South Western Railway: progress updates

[swt_passenger]

Does 710s with toilets added and seats moved around to suit longer journeys ( hopefully) actually need a mock-up?

 

[TwistedMentat]

https://www.akwauv-protec.com/Bioreactor.htm

https://www.railwaygazette.com/news/technology/single-view/view/lower-train-toilet-costs.html

Sound's expensive.

Upfront costs do sound high. But if they actually meet their claims the ongoing costs should be appreciably lower. Not just from being emptied less often but also simplifying train movements so that you don't have to always have it near emptying points as often.

I would also want to know what the treated wastewater looks and smells like as the trackworkers will have to put up with that. Hopefully the unions have made noise about that.

 

[Goldfish62]

Does 710s with toilets added and seats moved around to suit longer journeys ( hopefully) actually need a mock-up?

Same could have been said for the GA Aventras and the 707s. Plus I certainly hope the 701s don't have the same seats as the 710s, turned around or not!

 

[Ethano92]

Same could have been said for the GA Aventras and the 707s. Plus I certainly hope the 701s don't have the same seats as the 710s, turned around or not!

Would their seats not be like the transverse 345 seats? Either that or fainsa seats are my guess. I'd still prefer the seats the majority of SWRs EMU fleet currently have (on the 444, 450, 455, 456) but I doubt we'll get them.

 

[Goldfish62]

Would their seats not be like the transverse 345 seats? Either that or fainsa seats are my guess. I'd still prefer the seats the majority of SWRs EMU fleet currently have (on the 444, 450, 455, 456) but I doubt we'll get them.

Other seats are available! GA's Aventras are having something completely different, apparently... shock horror... designed with comfort in mind. Whatever next?!

The 345 seats are Fainsa, I believe. What I certainly hope is that the 701s don't have Fainsa ironing boards, but given the infamy of that particular seat design it wouldn't surprise me if that's why we haven't seen a mock-up yet.

 

[43096]

What I certainly hope is that the 701s don't have Fainsa ironing boards, but given the infamy of that particular seat design it wouldn't surprise me if that's why we haven't seen a mock-up yet.

Given that it is a WorstGroup company - an organisation not noted for giving a stuff about its passengers - I fully expect the 701s will get the cheapest, nastiest seat available.

 

[Goldfish62]

A new publication in the shops, "Britain's New Trains" has images of the Class 701 interior. Fainsa ironing boards jammed up against the sides, no tip-up tables and hardly any bay seating. So basically a 707 with toilets.

I like the proposed interior colour scheme, though.

Also to note is that the exterior livery lacks the stripes as per recent 158/159 repaints

 

[samuelmorris]

Definitely Fainsas are they? Sigh, well they are metro trains after all. The rest doesn't surprise me, but if it's so indifferent to the 707, it really is going to make people question the necessity of it (I know, leasing costs).
There are going to be some very interesting contrasts between the various subclasses of Aventra when they're all introduced...

 

[Ethano92]

A new publication in the shops, "Britain's New Trains" has images of the Class 701 interior. Fainsa ironing boards jammed up against the sides, no tip-up tables and hardly any bay seating. So basically a 707 with toilets.

I like the proposed interior colour scheme, though.

Also to note is that the exterior livery lacks the stripes as per recent 158/159 repaints

Was it a computer model or a physical model?

That's a real shame but expected I guess. At least Aventura's don't seem to have heating vents as intrusive as Siemens newest trains. Suddenly im not as excited for these trains, air con will be a miracle but I had some hope they'd at least have seat back tables.

 

[swt_passenger]

Definitely Fainsas are they? Sigh, well they are metro trains after all. The rest doesn't surprise me, but if it's so indifferent to the 707, it really is going to make people question the necessity of it (I know, leasing costs).

Leasing costs. Alleged - I don't think anyone here will have seen the actual figures.
Also:
Maintenance, training and timetabling efficiencies.
Passenger capacity.
Reduced station dwell times. The franchise specification specifically stated that the 707s in their as delivered condition did not meet DfT's revised standing capacity requirements and boarding/alighting times for expected passenger turnover at Clapham Junction.

 

[Mikey C]

Was it a computer model or a physical model?

That's a real shame but expected I guess. At least Aventura's don't seem to have heating vents as intrusive as Siemens newest trains. Suddenly im not as excited for these trains, air con will be a miracle but I had some hope they'd at least have seat back tables.

No way would the 701s have seat back tables, these are short distance trains, no comparable trains into London are so equipped

 

[Goldfish62]

No way would the 701s have seat back tables, these are short distance trains, no comparable trains into London are so equipped

Not entirely correct. The 458s are, as are the 377s used almost exclusively on inner suburban services.

Anyway, just because in general most inner suburban trains are lacking such a facility, I don't see why should that mean that can never change.

 

[jopsuk]

Not entirely correct. The 458s are, as are the 377s used almost exclusively on inner suburban services.

Anyway, just because in general most inner suburban trains are lacking such a facility, I don't see why should that mean that can never change.

The 458s were supposed to be entirely on outer suburban (with 1st class restored etc). The 377s are a mixed use fleet deployed on everything from Metro services to express runs to the coast.

 

[43096]

The 458s were supposed to be entirely on outer suburban (with 1st class restored etc). The 377s are a mixed use fleet deployed on everything from Metro services to express runs to the coast.

You have obviously missed that the 701s will be replacing the 458s on the Reading line. Which is outer suburban with first class currently. Until WorstGroup downgrade it, that is.

 

[Bletchleyite]

You have obviously missed that the 701s will be replacing the 458s on the Reading line. Which is outer suburban with first class currently. Until WorstGroup downgrade it, that is.

If (and I know not everyone will agree) 700s are suitable for Thameslink I can't really see any reason why a similar interior would not be suitable for the Reading stopping services.

 

[43096]

If (and I know not everyone will agree) 700s are suitable for Thameslink I can't really see any reason why a similar interior would not be suitable for the Reading stopping services.

That’s a very big “if”. It’s the constant dumbing down of the railway, as if the lowest common denominator is actually acceptable. If the 701s are similar to the 700 spec internally, then it will represent a big downgrade from the 450s and 458s.

I’ve got to the stage where I hope that passenger numbers plummet across the railway and induce a financial crisis in the industry. That seems to be the only way the industry will learn that just foisting any cr@p on the punters, just because it is “new”, is not acceptable. The railway really needs to learn a lesson: poor customer service, declining quality and high (and rising) prices is not going to end well.

 

[Goldfish62]

You have obviously missed that the 701s will

If (and I know not everyone will agree) 700s are suitable for Thameslink I can't really see any reason why a similar interior would not be suitable for the Reading stopping services.

Which are being retrospectively fitted with fold down tables.

 

[Ethano92]

I’ve got to the stage where I hope that passenger numbers plummet across the railway and induce a financial crisis in the industry. That seems to be the only way the industry will learn that just foisting any cr@p on the punters, just because it is “new”, is not acceptable.

Exactly how I feel. The 450s for example will have everything the 701s have but also have better seats, carpet (which I like in a train, I think it provides a nicer travelling environment) and seat back tables. If you got your train replaced in the early 2000s (eg Desiros and Electrostars), from a customer's perspective, they can accelerate as fast, have the same air con and toilets but better seats and comfort.

No way would the 701s have seat back tables, these are short distance trains, no comparable trains into London are so equipped

No matter the distance, a table can always be useful to eat, hold drinks, lean on or work. I don't like how 'short distance' services don't have tables. I would say why only cater to the ones doing 10 minutes to Earlsfield and not those going an hour down to Dorking but I think if you have multiple rows of transverse seating, a table should be provided regardless. Shorter journeys can be made on 450s and 444s at times. I understand having single doors to fit more seats can't and shouldn't be done on a metro train but seat back tables wouldn't hurt.

 

[Mikey C]

That’s a very big “if”. It’s the constant dumbing down of the railway, as if the lowest common denominator is actually acceptable. If the 701s are similar to the 700 spec internally, then it will represent a big downgrade from the 450s and 458s.

I’ve got to the stage where I hope that passenger numbers plummet across the railway and induce a financial crisis in the industry. That seems to be the only way the industry will learn that just foisting any cr@p on the punters, just because it is “new”, is not acceptable. The railway really needs to learn a lesson: poor customer service, declining quality and high (and rising) prices is not going to end well.

But a step up from the 455s and 456s, which are the main fleet being replaced.

 

[Goldfish62]

But a step up from the 455s and 456s, which are the main fleet being replaced.

Yes, but why not make it a step up or at least equal to ALL the stock they're replacing?

 

[Goldfish62]

Exactly how I feel. The 450s for example will have everything the 701s have but also have better seats, carpet (which I like in a train, I think it provides a nicer travelling environment) and seat back tables. If you got your train replaced in the early 2000s (eg Desiros and Electrostars), from a customer's perspective, they can accelerate as fast, have the same air con and toilets but better seats and comfort.



No matter the distance, a table can always be useful to eat, hold drinks, lean on or work. I don't like how 'short distance' services don't have tables. I would say why only cater to the ones doing 10 minutes to Earlsfield and not those going an hour down to Dorking but I think if you have multiple rows of transverse seating, a table should be provided regardless. Shorter journeys can be made on 450s and 444s at times. I understand having single doors to fit more seats can't and shouldn't be done on a metro train but seat back tables wouldn't hurt.

And given that WiFi and charging sockets aid working on a train, it then seems strange not to provide anywhere to rest one's paperwork etc.

 

[AverageTD]

701s will never beat a 458 or a 450 for comfort. Going from a 458 to a 701 on the Reading lines is a direct downgrade. Slightly better capacity for lower comfort. The 701s have the edge on the 450s in peak and busy times but apart from that the 450s are the most comfortable trains on the Windsor side. Now I'm starting to feel sorry for the GTR commuters with their 700s on the MML with no 365 or 377 alternative. RIP comfort for commuters in 2019!

 

[samuelmorris]

I'm cautiously optimistic about the 720s but generally yes, it is a rather disappointing trend.

 

[Ethano92]

And given that WiFi and charging sockets aid working on a train, it then seems strange not to provide anywhere to rest one's paperwork etc.

Very good point but it's something also seen on the 707s and 717s I believe, a bit of a weird trend.

Very true. In the peak of summer I found myself cursing the furnace-like 455s as they inevitably pulled into the platform; I'd also hope for their demise when I was running late and they accelerated so seemingly slow but at least the seats are comfy and there's a gap between them so your not completely sitting on top of the person next to you. The fact the seats don't narrow down to much towards the top also gives you some privacy when the train isn't full. Suddenly I'm hoping for the prolonged introduction of 701s but that will certainly change again next summer

I would say you can't have it all but 458s or 450s are a literal example of what I'd expect most customers want (perhaps if the 450s didn't have 3+2)

 

[Bald Rick]

Which were being retrospectively fitted with fold down tables.

Corrected for you

 

[hwl]

Corrected for you

Did DfT get bored of paying for it?

 

[Bald Rick]

Did DfT get bored of paying for it?

Something like that. Apparently.

 

[Goldfish62]

Corrected for you

How come? Is it not now happening? Andy there's no need for sarcasm.

 

[Bald Rick]

How come? Is it not now happening? Andy there's no need for sarcasm.

Well I haven’t seen any done in months. And it’s not a difficult job. So one has to conclude that it’s stopped.

 

[387star]

That’s a very big “if”. It’s the constant dumbing down of the railway, as if the lowest common denominator is actually acceptable. If the 701s are similar to the 700 spec internally, then it will represent a big downgrade from the 450s and 458s.

I’ve got to the stage where I hope that passenger numbers plummet across the railway and induce a financial crisis in the industry. That seems to be the only way the industry will learn that just foisting any cr@p on the punters, just because it is “new”, is not acceptable. The railway really needs to learn a lesson: poor customer service, declining quality and high (and rising) prices is not going to end well.

Yes we are facing a climate change catastrophe but let's not encourage the use of public transport