Class 701 'Aventra' trains for South Western Railway: progress updates

[Big Jumby 74]

I am thinking (probably already gone over it and showing my ignorance) but would it make sense to have a member of platform staff seeing trains off at the few problem stations with short platforms. This would not need to be very late at night or early in the morning. So the guard can watch from the rear cab or a vestibule for what the platform staff member is indicating. This would only need to be at problem stations and in the event a member of platform staff was not available then the train would have to skip that station ONLY if the guard had been forced to take refuge in the rear cab at busy times.

In principle, a reasonable way forward I would have thought....but....who knows in this day and age!

The running times since the 2004 timetable included allowances for almost all trains to stop there. Those that don't stop in the evening have exactly the same running time from Sunningdale to Virginia Water as those that do.

Back in 2004 the Longcross plan was in very early stages, so whilst (IIRC) a number of peak trains were the main focus for calling, it made sense for an allowance for the rest to be built in to the plan, as a) it was unknown how things would pan out in the future, potential passenger wise numbers which were dependent on the associated planned developments in the local area at the time, and b) it would maintain standard clock face timings at other stations, irrespective of if a stop was made at Longcross or not.

 

[WWTownEnth]

On 28 November 2024 SWR wheeled out a band, Stuart Broad, endless chinless wonders from HQ and a load of actors in fancy dress to promise further deployment of these units. Included in the associated media release was a commitment for two further diagrams in February. Is that undertaking too now going to be broken?

 

[Class15]

On 28 November 2024 SWR wheeled out a band, Stuart Broad, endless chinless wonders from HQ and a load of actors in fancy dress to promise further deployment of these units. Included in the associated media release was a commitment for two further diagrams in February. Is that undertaking too now going to be broken?

View attachment 174048

SWR are very reliable at sticking to promises, particularly regarding 701s, that I have no doubt that the diagrams will be in service by the end of February. Not quite so sure which February though…

 

[OneTrackMinded]

On 28 November 2024 SWR wheeled out a band, Stuart Broad, endless chinless wonders from HQ and a load of actors in fancy dress to promise further deployment of these units. Included in the associated media release was a commitment for two further diagrams in February. Is that undertaking too now going to be broken?

View attachment 174048

Personal opinion is the very elaborate event was First spending the last of the event budget before nationalisation

 

[Nogoohwell]

Platform staff despatch at those few short platforms makes sense.
It actually makes sense to have a qualified guard on the platform signal to the guard stuck in the rear cab to close doors and then give the ok to depart.

However this is all common sense and the last 5 years have taught us that this is as rare as rocking horse ….

 

[MasterPhillips]

How many other trains are there which are guard operated, of fixed, lengthy formation without centre cabs, and routinely operating crush loaded services? There can’t be that many..

Surely it shouldn’t matter to the Unions or the Guards (or whoever it is who has raised this issue, at this point I can’t remember who has!) how likely this situation is to occur, just that it might and that it poses a risk to them/their members however unlikely it is.

If we're going to go down the route of capital spend on station equipment, I'd far rather it was on lighting upgrades so that we can just go to DCO and end this all once and for all.

I had the same thought, the only thing is every station will need DCO work whereas only some will need extra monitors.

 

[43066]

A rather illogical way to serve passengers, if there are lots of passengers, some of whom might want to alight, then skip the station, if hardly anyone around then stop.

I’m not sure this accurately reflects what has been said, though? It’s being suggested that it might be used where trains are crush loaded, so not just when there are “lots of passengers”. Similarly it won’t be a case of only stopping if there’s“hardly anyone around”.

Run 10-car 701s as DOO (with platform dispatch), followed by 5-car 701s to serve the too scary/too short/too curvy/too dark platforms (yawn), thus bringing back the 4ph frequency. This would deal with the crush loading and the coupling issues. Basically run more flipping trains and actually serve the travelling public, rather than this current what's in it for me attitude. Don't do what works best for the drivers, the guards, SWR, the DfT, the RMT and ASLEF. It won't ever work.

So your solution is to disregard dispatch safety, and run trains at all costs?! I’m not sure how that’s meant to work when the parties you list above all need to buy into the arrangements. In fact it sounds like a pretty good way of ensuring no trains run at all.

Surely it shouldn’t matter to the Unions or the Guards (or whoever it is who has raised this issue, at this point I can’t remember who has!) how likely this situation is to occur, just that it might and that it poses a risk to them/their members however unlikely it is.

Absolutely.

 

[OneTrackMinded]

Any updates at all on training resuming yet? Must be some big dispute if it’s being dragged on this long..

 

[43066]

Any updates at all on training resuming yet? Must be some big dispute if it’s being dragged on this long..

It would certainly be interesting to know the specifics - although I can understand why those “in the know” may not wish to state anything publicly.

 

[markle]

deleted

 

[OneTrackMinded]

I would surmise from the discussion on here thus far:

- There is a debate about the method of working for guards when trains are crush loaded
- Until this is resolved, the training materials cannot be finalised
- Until the training materials are finalised, training cannot resume

I don’t believe the guard issue has anything to do with the driver training issue. The method of operation will be DOGC for the forceable future, and the technicalities of that are on the guard’s side

 

[Peter Sarf]

I don’t believe the guard issue has anything to do with the driver training issue. The method of operation will be DOGC for the forceable future, and the technicalities of that are on the guard’s side

Could arguably affect driver training if the driver opens at a problem station where a member of staff on the platform does the safety and the train guard does not set foot on the platform (but does close the doors). Does the driver take the nod from the platform member or via the train guard ?.

Speculation - but the risk is anything agreed might lead to the point that the same procedure applies to more and more stations.

Indeed has any agreement been reached amongst the union(s), SWR, DfT and/or Network Rail (etc etc) on which stations are problem stations ?.

 

[NSEWonderer]

Wouldn't be surprised to see a Kingston some time soon and within this month.

 

[OneTrackMinded]

Wouldn't be surprised to see a Kingston some time soon and within this month.

There’s been no driver training since Christmas, how would that be possible?

 

[SWT_USER]

There’s been no driver training since Christmas, how would that be possible?

Cancel one of the other diagrams. Then claim the rollout is progressing as the 701's are on a new route..

 

[NSEWonderer]

There’s been no driver training since Christmas, how would that be possible?

Because there's still a pool of trained and still competent 701 drivers, definitely not enough for an expansive sudden increase of 701 services(past the one or two additions currently) but there's enough trained and still within the competency time allowance for an increase of one train or two a month.

Most drivers who'd have been on leave near the tail end of last year would be back by now might I add. The halt in training doesn't negate the number of existing trained 701 drivers who if need be could also have jobs covered(and do) to allow SWR meet its 701 introduction plan as posted above somewhere.

 

[MotCO]

Cancel one of the other diagrams. Then claim the rollout is progressing as the 701's are on a new route..

Is training both type and route specific? I.e., are drivers trained specifically for the Kingston route, so if they don't commence that soon, they may be time-barred for that route.

 

[NSEWonderer]

Is training both type and route specific? I.e., are drivers trained specifically for the Kingston route, so if they don't commence that soon, they may be time-barred for that route.

The only training needed for them would be for the 701s itself which is on pause, an existing 701 driver would already have route competency on the Kingston route as quite a large part of it forms the basic two routes required for route knowledge at SWR and an experienced Driver, especially any that have had 701 training would have already the required Route knowledge.

 

[norbitonflyer]

Wouldn't be surprised to see a Kingston some time soon and within this month.

One of the existing diagrams already serves Kingston. (2H08, 2H07, 2H16, 2H15 etc .....2H56, 2H55)

 

[NSEWonderer]

One of the existing diagrams already serves Kingston. (2H08, 2H07, 2H16, 2H15 etc .....2H56, 2H55)

Dang it, you've got me Should have clarified I meant a rounder

 

[OneTrackMinded]

Cancel one of the other diagrams. Then claim the rollout is progressing as the 701's are on a new route..

Wouldn't be surprised if the prying eyes of those that watch over these forums take this idea on board

 

[brad465]

I doubt anything will change here until SWR is transferred to directly operated railways and a new leadership team is put in place who can reset the programme and the relationship with the unions.

If SWR are genuinely holding back, knowing they have nothing to lose with being nationalised fast approaching, then the government have the opportunity for a quick win if they can suddenly expedite the whole process and claim credit for it (whether legitimately or not), in stark contrast with what was going on before.

 

[OneTrackMinded]

If SWR are genuinely holding back, knowing they have nothing to lose with being nationalised fast approaching, then the government have the opportunity for a quick win if they can suddenly expedite the whole process and claim credit for it (whether legitimately or not), in stark contrast with what was going on before.

As much as I wish that could be true, it's going to be the same upper management, which all answer to the DfT for every decision anyway. That's a National Rail Contract for you, a poor mans nationalisation. All that changes is the fact that the government no longer have to pay First MTR. Although maybe some policies will change in an effort to create the perception of change, who knows really.

 

[norbitonflyer]

Dang it, you've got me Should have clarified I meant a rounder

One of the Sunday diagrams introduced last month includes some rounders (it alternates Shepperton- Rounder - Shepperton etc) but it has only run three times so far, and not since 12th January (and one of those three times was not a Sunday - it was New Years Day). Certainly won't be running tomorrow as there is nothing at all through Wimbledon.

EDIT
Even as I type, I notice that 701031 is operating 2O11

 

[Goldfish62]

As much as I wish that could be true, it's going to be the same upper management, which all answer to the DfT for every decision anyway. That's a National Rail Contract for you, a poor mans nationalisation. All that changes is the fact that the government no longer have to pay First MTR. Although maybe some policies will change in an effort to create the perception of change, who knows really.

Do you know for sure that it's going to be the same senior management? Genuine question because you might have inside info for all I know. Bear in mind that currently SWR doesn't even have a confirmed MD, only an interim one.

To date more often than not they've been replaced with the change of ownership. This lot are particularly useless so need to get the push to make any progress. For starters they seem to have completely toxified industrial relations. Replacement gives opportunity for a reset, which then unlocks a whole load of things, not least progress with the 701s.

 

[Big Jumby 74]

Do you know for sure that it's going to be the same senior management?

On previous occasions (franchise change etc) it was only Director level that was replaced as a matter of course. Other senior grades (AFAIR) stayed, unless they wanted a change for personal reasons of course.

 

[NSEWonderer]

Realtime Trains | 2K27 1157 London Waterloo to London Waterloo | 08/02/2025

Real-time train running information for 2K27 1157 departure from London Waterloo to London Waterloo on 08/02/2025. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Realtime Trains | 2O71 2230 London Waterloo to London Waterloo | 08/02/2025

Real-time train running information for 2O71 2230 departure from London Waterloo to London Waterloo on 08/02/2025. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

I assume this is the first time they've done a Kingston rounder diagram looks like Kingston consecutively for 701031 today.

 

[Clarence Yard]

Do you know for sure that it's going to be the same senior management? Genuine question because you might have inside info for all I know. Bear in mind that currently SWR doesn't even have a confirmed MD, only an interim one.

To date more often than not they've been replaced with the change of ownership. This lot are particularly useless so need to get the push to make any progress. For starters they seem to have completely toxified industrial relations. Replacement gives opportunity for a reset, which then unlocks a whole load of things, not least progress with the 701s.

Well, the current senior management have been acting on orders directly from the DfT, that’s how an NRC works and FG just collect their fees. Their HQ isn’t calling any shots under an NRC.

What changes is that the new owners will put a couple of directors on the TOC board, maybe change the MD and that will be about it. They will still be micro-managed by the DfT with every change/negotiation in staff numbers or any staff conditions subject to their approval. They will also continue to be closely involved with the 701 decisions.

 

[Goldfish62]

Well, the current senior management have been acting on orders directly from the DfT, that’s how an NRC works and FG just collect their fees. Their HQ isn’t calling any shots under an NRC.

What changes is that the new owners will put a couple of directors on the TOC board, maybe change the MD and that will be about it. They will still be micro-managed by the DfT with every change/negotiation in staff numbers or any staff conditions subject to their approval. They will also continue to be closely involved with the 701 decisions.

To be honest I think SWR needs micromanaging by an outside authority! The company seems totally incapable of doing anything without needing its hand held.

Nevertheless, remember that the DfT isn't some independent authority that can do what it likes. It's answerable to government ministers. And from I'm told from insider knowledge is that the constraints on TOCs are not quite as they were, even if TOC management may want the outside world to think otherwise to divert attention from its own inaction and incompetence.

 

[waterboo]

Matthew Golton got the chop when TPE moved into DOHL, and he was immensely more capable than SWRs current offering. The current 'leadership' really need to go,. They have allowed a sense of managed decline to permeate right through the business.