Class 701 'Aventra' trains for South Western Railway: progress updates

[NSEWonderer]

It allows the guard on long distance services to carry on with the customer service aspect of the role until dispatch is required though.

It's agreed with ASLEF on legacy stock where possible, makes more operational sense in my opinion and doesn't need the guard to drop everything to release the doors.

Should be a no brainer when the time comes.

I don't believe door release is agreed by Aslef on Desiros, much less the 458/4/5s? DOGC in itself is a stopgap till things are ready for full Doo and that again being related to 701s.

Plus most Guards are used to already making their way to said door come time of arrival at a station on long distance services. For example the fast Portsmouth out of Waterloo that passed clapham will first stop at Woking, more than enough time for the Guard to do a full round of the train and back.

The Weymouth the same except it stops at clapham for pickup. Again still enough distance to do customer duties and be door ready come Woking. I don't see what amount of time is really saved on the long distance routes to start initiating door release by driver on 450s and 444s.

Does it make sense to a degree, yes, more so on the metro services which is what 701s are doing. It does yes make sense that a Driver will know if they're fully accommodated as to release the doors or not without having to do extra steps to prevent door release by Guard.

The logistics of implementing this on legacy stock efficiently isn't however such a simple matter, especially having to train in these new things to some staff but train out other things from staff to allow it to run potentially smoothly ontop of the other potential equipment incompatibilities and risks that need to be looked at, but I digress much from this 701 thread.

 

[DMckduck]

I don't believe door release is agreed by Aslef on Desiros, much less the 458/4/5s? DOGC in itself is a stopgap till things are ready for full Doo and that again being related to 701s.

I'm pretty sure door release on legacy stock where possible was agreed in the 2020 multi year pay deal, the RMT also agreed it in their 2021 deal.

If someone here has specifics on the 2020 deal, more than happy to be proven wrong.

 

[Mainsideman]

I'm pretty sure door release on legacy stock where possible was agreed in the 2020 multi year pay deal, the RMT also agreed it in their 2021 deal.

If someone here has specifics on the 2020 deal, more than happy to be proven wrong.

It was agreed yes. But these deals change, guards were not meant to touch doors on 701s and look where we are now.

 

[DMckduck]

It was agreed yes. But these deals change, guards were not meant to touch doors on 701s and look where we are now.

Slightly incorrect, degraded dispatch always existed in the framework of the deals, of which there was 5 instances where degraded dispatch could apply.

 

[Goldfish62]

Slightly incorrect, degraded dispatch always existed in the framework of the deals, of which there was 5 instances where degraded dispatch could apply.

Indeed. On my very first 701 trip way back in January last year there was degraded despatch at Sunnymeades towards Windsor.

 

[43096]

There won't be much time savings with that

You’d be surprised. Process now seems to be: train stops, local door opens (slowly on a 450), guard gets out, minces up and down a bit checking the platform is still there even though they’ve stopped in that exact spot hundreds of times before, only then do the doors get released.

 

[sp503]

There won't be much time savings with that, plus the plan is that those 450s eventually get displaced back onto the mainline where the timings are more suited for them.

Aren’t most mainline routes (Portsmouth, Weymouth/Southampton, Alton, Basingstoke) operated with 444s and 450s already? As for the Windsor side, even the Reading is scheduled for 701s. So where exactly can the 450s displace to?

 

[NSEWonderer]

Aren’t most mainline routes (Portsmouth, Weymouth/Southampton, Alton, Basingstoke) operated with 444s and 450s already? As for the Windsor side, even the Reading is scheduled for 701s. So where exactly can the 450s displace to?

What i mean is the 450s that are also operating unsuitable routes for the stock like the Hounslow rounders and Weybridges aswell as Windsors.

 

[Towers]

Does it make sense to a degree, yes, more so on the metro services which is what 701s are doing. It does yes make sense that a Driver will know if they're fully accommodated as to release the doors or not without having to do extra steps to prevent door release by Guard.

Except when the driver stops short, on their first trip with a 10 car having been on 5 cars all day, etc etc. If you’re stopping at the wrong mark in the first place it’s entirely possible that you’ll be hitting the release buttons before you’ve realised, that is precisely why those “extra steps” are in place so that the guards’ checks pick up if the driver has got it wrong - stop shorts and wrong side releases are very much alive and well in plenty of DOO/driver door release areas!

Anyhow, back on topic… If enabling the cab door release function on the Desi’s requires engineering work to make the buttons operate, that’ll be time consuming and expensive. Who’s funding that for zero apparent gain? DfT? Skint aren’t they?!

 

[Meerkat]

Except when the driver stops short, on their first trip with a 10 car having been on 5 cars all day, etc etc. If you’re stopping at the wrong mark in the first place it’s entirely possible that you’ll be hitting the release buttons before you’ve realised, that is precisely why those “extra steps” are in place so that the guards’ checks pick up if the driver has got it wrong - stop shorts and wrong side releases are very much alive and well in plenty of DOO/driver door release areas!

Anyhow, back on topic… If enabling the cab door release function on the Desi’s requires engineering work to make the buttons operate, that’ll be time consuming and expensive. Who’s funding that for zero apparent gain? DfT? Skint aren’t they?!

There is a time gain though; and a PR gain that you take away a grumble (it’s almost the last thing a passenger does on a journey so they remember it more).
I’m not convinced how much the guard adds from what I’ve seen - whether he looks both ways, whether he can actually tell where the back is from his angle, and whether he can see the back as people surge to the doors.

 

[swr444]

There is a time gain though; and a PR gain that you take away a grumble (it’s almost the last thing a passenger does on a journey so they remember it more).
I’m not convinced how much the guard adds from what I’ve seen - whether he looks both ways, whether he can actually tell where the back is from his angle, and whether he can see the back as people surge to the doors.

Guards aren’t just men these days, fyi

 

[mansonlo49]

there’s another 701 today to LM, headcode as 5Q75, any info, thanks

 

[MasterPhillips]

Except when the driver stops short, on their first trip with a 10 car having been on 5 cars all day, etc etc. If you’re stopping at the wrong mark in the first place it’s entirely possible that you’ll be hitting the release buttons before you’ve realised, that is precisely why those “extra steps” are in place so that the guards’ checks pick up if the driver has got it wrong - stop shorts and wrong side releases are very much alive and well in plenty of DOO/driver door release areas!

How many of these incidents occur everyday, versus the number of door releases there are per day, across the entire country by drivers. Not enough to say it is unsafe I would imagine.

 

[Benjwri]

How many of these incidents occur everyday, versus the number of door releases there are per day, across the entire country by drivers. Not enough to say it is unsafe I would imagine.

Now consider the potential cost of such an incident, should someone fall out, or worse be seriously injured. Even if they see there is no platform, in rush hour the pushing from behind where people can’t see out the door could force them, and possibly multiple people out.

 

[wickham]

+

My bold. I am guessing that 701022 has only just left Marchwood for London. 701022 is certainly one I have not seen in London. I was hoping to get it in Clapham Yard today (08/08/2025) but I guess it is now hiding in Wimbledon Park OR was out on test.

I did see newbies 701057 & 701058 side by side in Clapham Yard today (at 16:10).

This might well be a recording error on my part - I did write down 701022 at Clapham Yard, but on checking I have no record of it leaving Marchwood.

 

[Meerkat]

Guards aren’t just men these days, fyi

Apologies. Though on SWR I can’t remember seeing a female guard, but have seen several female drivers….

 

[Bigfoot]

Apologies. Though on SWR I can’t remember seeing a female guard, but have seen several female drivers….

There's a significant number, many more than the proportion of drivers

 

[markglos]

there’s another 701 today to LM, headcode as 5Q75, any info, thanks

Have been told 701060

 

[mansonlo49]

Have been told 701060

thanks, btw think this is the second time of it returning

 

[Bumpkin]

wrong side releases are very much alive and well in plenty of DOO/driver door release areas!

701s have wrong side door release protection.

They use the ASDO balises on the approach to platforms to identify what platform they are arriving on and prevent the wrong side from being released accidentally.

 

[43066]

You’d be surprised. Process now seems to be: train stops, local door opens (slowly on a 450), guard gets out, minces up and down a bit checking the platform is still there even though they’ve stopped in that exact spot hundreds of times before, only then do the doors get released.

It isn’t checking the platform is still there - it’s checking the train is correctly platform. DOO drivers also have to perform checks that can take as long (I know that because I used to be one).

 

[bb21]

Anyhow, back on topic… If enabling the cab door release function on the Desi’s requires engineering work to make the buttons operate, that’ll be time consuming and expensive. Who’s funding that for zero apparent gain? DfT? Skint aren’t they?!

The 707 rewiring project did not go too well and took quite a while for reliability to rebound to a decent level, and they are still miles off their guarded days. If Desiros are to be wired up, given their age, I would imagine their reliability will likely drop off a cliff, not that they are doing particularly well at the moment.

701s have wrong side door release protection.

They use the ASDO balises...

...which are not particularly reliable at the moment.

 

[Bald Rick]

No I imagine most passengers don't. But what happens if a train is cancelled, or the passenger is running late and just misses the train? Then it's a 30 minute wait.

Agreed, but that is not the same as a thiry minute wait for most passengers.

 

[Mag_seven]

Another reminder that this is a Traction and Rolling stock thread to discuss Class 701 introduction updates.

thanks

 

[Bikeman78]

It’s not 3 seconds, it’s more like 10-15 which does matter on the high frequency sections like Wimbledon and Barnes inwards.

I’m including the time it takes the doors to release in the first place here too.

I have taken some timings. On lightly loaded trains, typically 10 seconds to release the doors, 20 seconds to let people on and off, and 15 seconds between hustle alarm starting to sound and train departing. So less than half the time stopped is available to get on and off. Not sure how a 701 compares.

 

[swtrains]

Today's testing (701028):

5T91 - Clapham Yard - Reading - goes to Shepperton via Richmond, reverses, goes to Twickenham, reverses and goes to Reading.
5T92 - Reading - Clapham Yard - goes to Farnham, reverses and heads back via mainline.

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:79476/2025-05-12/detailed

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:79521/2025-05-12/detailed#allox_id=0

 

[davews]

Seeing 701028 sat at platform 6 at Reading this afternoon it struck me that it spends a whole hour there, blocking the platform for other trains. Is this just testing or is training involved as well?

 

[800001]

Seeing 701028 sat at platform 6 at Reading this afternoon it struck me that it spends a whole hour there, blocking the platform for other trains. Is this just testing or is training involved as well?

Did other trains need to use the platform?
Or was it a planned/booked move into that platform with all services accommodated?

 

[davews]

Obviously it was planned. But I thought the Waterloo and North Downs trains struggled anyway with only three (4,5,6) platforms available.

 

[Goldfish62]

Obviously it was planned. But I thought the Waterloo and North Downs trains struggled anyway with only three (4,5,6) platforms available.

Not these days with the cuts to Reading line services. If anything the allocation of three 12-car platforms is over-generous. The former two 8-car platforms before the rebuild were more intensively used.