Class 701 'Aventra' trains for South Western Railway: progress updates

[Val3ntine]

Correct, it’ll be interesting to see how it copes and the operational instructions when traveling on restrictive aspects or poor rail adhesion as the driver will still be classed as fully responsible.

From what I’ve heard an alarm will ring in the cab once the train passes over a beacon in the track and the driver can acknowledge and accept it. If driving on restrictions or poor adhesion the driver is to not accept it.
In my opinion I reckon after numerous incidents drivers just wouldn’t accept it regardless similar to the situation of accepting route learners in the cab. Some will see it’s just not worth the risk since the risk is all on them.

 

[DennisM]

From what I’ve heard an alarm will ring in the cab once the train passes over a beacon in the track and the driver can acknowledge and accept it. If driving on restrictions or poor adhesion the driver is to not accept it.
In my opinion I reckon after numerous incidents drivers just wouldn’t accept it regardless similar to the situation of accepting route learners in the cab. Some will see it’s just not worth the risk since the risk is all on them.

Sounds like it could cause other issues such as drivers ‘accepting’ the trains offer to stop at a station it isn’t due to call at, once a driver develops the habit of associating the noise with an action, similar to silencing the AWS.

On the subject of drivers choosing not to use the system, I would imagine the company wouldn’t look too favourably on someone who decides not to and subsequently stops short or puts up a wrong side door release.

 

[TEW]

The idea of the system is that it will have a performance benefit too, I imagine that will be by fairly hard braking and then an immediate release of the doors, so I imagine the company are going to want drivers using it.

 

[infobleep]

A minute improvement per stop is not going to happen, most stops are only scheduled 3 minutes apart. Dwell time improvements are unlikely to be the significant because of the insistence of people in using only the carriage that stops right by the exit for their station, even though it saves you no time once you have waited for everyone else to also leave through the same set of doors.

There was a 707 operating on Waterloo to Woking stopping services yesterday. I was on one of the runs, being driven pretty aggressively I would say, and the train was early at most stations. 5 minutes could probably have been shaved end to end, but that was a quiet off peak service.

Even now on quieter services 455s could easily run to quicker timings on many routes. With a quick train crew services can be waiting time at several stations.

Being at the front of a train at Wimbledon vers being near the back can mean the difference between missing a Sutton Loop service train and having to wait 30 minutes for the next and catching one. I know from experience.

This is on services where there is an official connection between the two trains and your incoming train is slightly late in.

No wonder people like to be near the exit.

 

[TEW]

Being at the front of a train at Wimbledon vers being near the back can mean the difference between missing a Sutton Loop service train and having to wait 30 minutes for the next. I know from experience.

This is on services where there is an official connection between the two trains and your incoming train is slightly late in.

No wonder people like to be near the exit.

It can make a difference, but if you are near the back of the queue to get off from the last coach you would certainly be quicker using the 2nd or 3rd last coach instead.

 

[infobleep]

It can make a difference, but if you are near the back of the queue to get off from the last coach you would certainly be quicker using the 2nd or 3rd last coach instead.

Third coach I'm spectical one, unless the firet coach is beyond the exit area. I foget the layout. Certainly second coach one would be.

 

[Railengineer]

It’s not really surprising: WorstGroup have never given an f-in-circle about their customers.

Good to see someone else has noticed that the 'group' doesn't care about customers....Its all about the money First !

 

[Ianno87]

It can make a difference, but if you are near the back of the queue to get off from the last coach you would certainly be quicker using the 2nd or 3rd last coach instead.

Yep. Happens on 700s too. Long queue forms for very end door. Quicker to get off several doors back!

 

[Doomotron]

Its all about the money First

You really like that analogy don't you...

 

[nuts & bolts]

Yep. Happens on 700s too. Long queue forms for very end door. Quicker to get off several doors back!

It's a shame it doesn't work in reverse that idea, when your 12 car is calling at an 8 car platform and a queue is formed at the very rear vestibule door to board - 30 seconds at least lost.

 

[Bigfoot]

There is a fantastic rumour running round SWR staff that they have built 10 units and they are all hidden away from view so that no one can see them (how you hide 50 or 100 coaches from eagle eyed spotters god only knows!) and they won't be shown to anyone until modifications to cabs are completed.

I know there are no competed any units yet, just find it hilarious how rumours propagate.

 

[Rick1984]

how you hide 50 or 100 coaches from eagle eyed spotters god only knows!

Strategic reserve?

 

[Railengineer]

There is a fantastic rumour running round SWR staff that they have built 10 units and they are all hidden away from view so that no one can see them (how you hide 50 or 100 coaches from eagle eyed spotters god only knows!)

There are loads of junk yards around Derby to hide stuff

 

[DanielTheEMid]

Great,not! Now ironing boards have to impact SWR cause of the DFT's stupid brains. When I'm older i will stop ironing board seats for good!

 

[whhistle]

Good to see someone else has noticed that the 'group' doesn't care about customers....Its all about the money First !

Can you name one company that isn't in it for the money?
Because I certainly can't!

 

[superalbs]

Great,not! Now ironing boards have to impact SWR cause of the DFT's stupid brains. When I'm older i will stop ironing board seats for good!

Woohoo, our hero!

 

[Doomotron]

Great,not! Now ironing boards have to impact SWR cause of the DFT's stupid brains. When I'm older i will stop ironing board seats for good!

Fainsa have actually improved the seat and made it a lot more comfortable for the 385, probably after bad press.

Then again, if the new trains have Quantum seats, it's a different story altogether.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Fainsa have actually improved the seat and made it a lot more comfortable for the 385, probably after bad press.

The new base is better, but it wasn't for that reason - ScotRail requested it having trialled it on their mock-up (and having tried both side by side it does make a major difference). It's optional and the original version is still available.

 

[Goldfish62]

From what I’ve heard an alarm will ring in the cab once the train passes over a beacon in the track and the driver can acknowledge and accept it. If driving on restrictions or poor adhesion the driver is to not accept it.
In my opinion I reckon after numerous incidents drivers just wouldn’t accept it regardless similar to the situation of accepting route learners in the cab. Some will see it’s just not worth the risk since the risk is all on them.

So you're writing it off while it's still on on the drawing board and despite the fact that full ATO has been in use in this country for half a century?

 

[Goldfish62]

Can you name one company that isn't in it for the money?
Because I certainly can't!

I don't think the OP realises that all companies have to have an income that exceeds expenditure so they can invest, including being able to give staff reasonable annual pay rises. That includes publicly owned companies.

 

[Val3ntine]

So you're writing it off while it's still on on the drawing board and despite the fact that full ATO has been in use in this country for half a century?

I didn’t say me, I said drivers which could mean some, could mean 1, could mean all.
No one’s writing it off, but making a prediction from what i’ve seen in my experience regarding the example I gave, after so many incidents (if this even occurs, again just a prediction) then drivers will not allow something that’s out of their control to put an incident on their safety of the line record. From what I’ve heard which is very little, drivers won’t be forced to use it, just like they are not forced to let route learners drive or managers even.

 

[Goldfish62]

I don't think the OP realises that all companies have to have an income that exceeds expenditure to maintain cash flow and so they can invest, including being able to give staff reasonable annual pay rises. That includes publicly owned companies.

I didn’t say me, I said drivers which could mean some, could mean 1, could mean all.
No one’s writing it off, but making a prediction from what i’ve seen in my experience regarding the example I gave, after so many incidents (if this even occurs, again just a prediction) then some drivers will not allow something that’s out of their control to put an incident on their safety of the line record.
Not saying it will happen.

Yes, of course drivers will want to protect themselves and the system needs to be robust, and drivers trained in its use but given that the UK was the pioneer of ATO I think we should show a bit of confidence. There were regular ATO over-runs when the surface sections of the Central line went ATO, but that has been largely managed out.

 

[Val3ntine]

Yes, of course drivers will want to protect themselves and the system needs to be robust, and drivers trained in its use but given that the UK was the pioneer of ATO I think we should show a bit of confidence. There were regular ATO over-runs when the surface sections of the Central line went ATO, but that has been largely managed out.

Yeah I agree don’t get me wrong. It’s just the “you can use it here, but not here, you can use it in this situation but not that etc etc” that I think might cause a bit of friction. Bearing in mind its only a very small section from waterloo only about 15/20 minutes down the line, some could well say why the hassle. Is it a bit drizzly? hmm dark clouds are forming, it was raining 30 mins ago will it be still slippery? Is this rain okay rain or is it the lethal type that makes you slide worse than leaves? is that leaves I can see ahead even though it’s not low adhesion season?
You can see here where majority MIGHT just say okay I’ll stop manuallly these first couple of stops just like i’m going to have to anyway for the rest of the journey.

 

[Railengineer]

So you're writing it off while it's still on on the drawing board and despite the fact that full ATO has been in use in this country for half a century?

Only on a 'metro' railway. implementing ATO on the national network is a different challenge altogether.

 

[Railengineer]

Can you name one company that isn't in it for the money?
Because I certainly can't!

Exactly my point!

 

[Charlie Smythe]

Can you name one company that isn't in it for the money?
Because I certainly can't!

Obviously not, that's the point of a business. Many people seem to forget that the railway is their to make money.

 

[Goldfish62]

Only on a 'metro' railway. implementing ATO on the national network is a different challenge altogether.

Thameslink core...

 

[Ethano92]

Yeah I agree don’t get me wrong. It’s just the “you can use it here, but not here, you can use it in this situation but not that etc etc” that I think might cause a bit of friction. Bearing in mind its only a very small section from waterloo only about 15/20 minutes down the line, some could well say why the hassle. Is it a bit drizzly? hmm dark clouds are forming, it was raining 30 mins ago will it be still slippery? Is this rain okay rain or is it the lethal type that makes you slide worse than leaves? is that leaves I can see ahead even though it’s not low adhesion season?
You can see here where majority MIGHT just say okay I’ll stop manuallly these first couple of stops just like i’m going to have to anyway for the rest of the journey.

A Hampton court stopper is half an hour down to surbiton. Sure not a significant amount of time but I don't see why drivers should take this approach. I understand why they would choose not to I guess but like surely SWR can really enforce them using it.

As with any new stock, drivers will brake very genrrously. I would say for a short amount of time but Thameslink is still a mixed bag with the 700s but obviously not all drivers were trained from the start of introduction. Anyway with 16 or so tph calling all stations at least as far as Wimbledon and sharing the same tracks until Raynes park I can completely see why ABDO would be beneficial and should be used.

 

[Val3ntine]

A Hampton court stopper is half an hour down to surbiton. Sure not a significant amount of time but I don't see why drivers should take this approach. I understand why they would choose not to I guess but like surely SWR can really enforce them using it.

As with any new stock, drivers will brake very genrrously. I would say for a short amount of time but Thameslink is still a mixed bag with the 700s but obviously not all drivers were trained from the start of introduction. Anyway with 16 or so tph calling all stations at least as far as Wimbledon and sharing the same tracks until Raynes park I can completely see why ABDO would be beneficial and should be used.

The conditions are that the conditions must be clear (no adhesion or wet rails) and it can’t be used on restrictive signals as it will not prevent the driver having a SPAD.
Realistically during the peak when ASBO is REALLY needed the most is when you will be on anything but clear signals so that’s already a major flaw.

 

[dctraindriver]

A Hampton court stopper is half an hour down to surbiton. Sure not a significant amount of time but I don't see why drivers should take this approach. I understand why they would choose not to I guess but like surely SWR can really enforce them using it.

As with any new stock, drivers will brake very genrrously. I would say for a short amount of time but Thameslink is still a mixed bag with the 700s but obviously not all drivers were trained from the start of introduction. Anyway with 16 or so tph calling all stations at least as far as Wimbledon and sharing the same tracks until Raynes park I can completely see why ABDO would be beneficial and should be used.

Ethano, are you a train driver? Low adhesion occurs in the London area even if trains are running every couple of minutes.... Caution is king....