Class 701 'Aventra' trains for South Western Railway: progress updates

[43066]

It appears that the only workable way to operate the SWR metro timetable with these class 701 trains is with the driver having complete and sole control over the opening and closing of the train doors. It appears that trying to operate them with the guard being required to close the doors will never work. Clearly it is not acceptable for timetabled station calls to be skipped because it is not operationally possible to open or close the train doors at the station.

Except that’s what they’ve spent the last couple of years trying to implement, and the result of those efforts is that the 455 fleet still operates the vast majority of the metro timetable, while the 701s sit idle in the depot. So something has to give.

Clearly skipping stations isn’t exactly ideal - but we don’t yet know the scale of the issue. It presumably depends on what work arounds can be found, and how many times stations would actually need to be skipped in reality once the service is operating. If it only happens in unusual/exceptional circumstances it might not have that much of an impact.

 

[TEW]

It appears that the only workable way to operate the SWR metro timetable with these class 701 trains is with the driver having complete and sole control over the opening and closing of the train doors. It appears that trying to operate them with the guard being required to close the doors will never work. Clearly it is not acceptable for timetabled station calls to be skipped because it is not operationally possible to open or close the train doors at the station.

Well given that drivers don't close the doors anywhere on 701s now, and the 701s running in service are not having stops skipped left, right and centre, that's obviously not the case.
The issue has been massively overblown on here. 701s were obviously not optimally designed for guards closing doors, but it will work, as it has been for 12 months now.

 

[I_am_Nobody]

It appears that the only workable way to operate the SWR metro timetable with these class 701 trains is with the driver having complete and sole control over the opening and closing of the train doors. It appears that trying to operate them with the guard being required to close the doors will never work. Clearly it is not acceptable for timetabled station calls to be skipped because it is not operationally possible to open or close the train doors at the station.

I think you’ll find that DODC/DOO isn’t possible at the moment, otherwise they would be out there working that day right now. But they aren’t. So they won’t. Not without some changes which takes time and money.
So, next best thing: if they aren’t running without a Guard, they aren’t running at all.

I can say that honestly, not many stations will be skipped, and even on very bad trains the crowds onboard will thin out eventually. Though there is a lot to consider even on top of the train being accommodated on the platform, including but not limited to platform train interface sighting, availability of CCTV for dispatch and/or platform staff, etc. While a member of staff remains legally responsible for a task, they will (in the professional sense) want to do it safely.

Well given that drivers don't close the doors anywhere on 701s now, and the 701s running in service are not having stops skipped left, right and centre, that's obviously not the case.
The issue has been massively overblown on here. 701s were obviously not optimally designed for guards closing doors, but it will work, as it has been for 12 months now.

No, the issue has NOT been blown out of proportion, there just hasn’t been a massive crowd due to events at Twickenham and/or Ascot to cause an issue.

 

[norbitonflyer]

Well given that drivers don't close the doors anywhere on 701s now, and the 701s running in service are not having stops skipped left, right and centre, that's obviously not the case.

Indeed, but they are only running on a few routes - Windsor, the two Shepperton routes (and the Kingston rounders on Sundays, but that involves no additional stations), and a single service, in the up direction only, from Surbiton. Presumably the issues with short platforms are elsewhere. (Is it significant that the Surbiton service runs empty from Hampton Court?)

 

[43066]

I can say that honestly, not many stations will be skipped, and even on very bad trains the crowds onboard will thin out eventually. Though there is a lot to consider even on top of the train being accommodated on the platform, including but not limited to platform train interface sighting, availability of CCTV for dispatch and/or platform staff, etc. While a member of staff remains legally responsible for a task, they will (in the professional sense) want to do it safely.

Thanks for clarifying - so it’s likely to be more of an “in extremis” measure.

 

[I_am_Nobody]

Thanks for clarifying - so it’s likely to be more of an “in extremis” measure.

As long as the Guards can get from one GOP on one side, to the GOP on the other side of the train, they can call all stops. As soon as the train is too crowded to allow for that safely, that’s when the backup starts and considerations need to be made. There are few services where this will apply, and is an extreme measure yes.

 

[OneTrackMinded]

What exactly is preventing driver training from restarting at this point? Are they still somehow arguing about the wording of the reduced training course?

 

[MotCO]

Clearly skipping stations isn’t exactly ideal - but we don’t yet know the scale of the issue. It presumably depends on what work arounds can be found, and how many times stations would actually need to be skipped in reality once the service is operating. If it only happens in unusual/exceptional circumstances it might not have that much of an impact.

But if the service becomes 100% operated by 701s (keeps a straight face somehow ), then no trains will be able to stop at these skipped stations (except 5 car trains). That can't be acceptable.

 

[PG]

But if the service becomes 100% operated by 701s (keeps a straight face somehow ), then no trains will be able to stop at these skipped stations (except 5 car trains). That can't be acceptable.

Surely trains that aren't crush loaded would still be able to serve these stations?

 

[Snow1964]

Surely trains that aren't crush loaded would still be able to serve these stations?

A rather illogical way to serve passengers, if there are lots of passengers, some of whom might want to alight, then skip the station, if hardly anyone around then stop.

Sort of makes it opposite of a request stop.

But its not really practical to say it's the rush hour so not stopping for another 2-3 hours until quiet time, and some of the proposed 701 routes have stations where next train is at least 30 minutes later. Skipping should be rare exception, not everyday occurrence (because same train everyday is busy).

 

[I_am_Nobody]

Skipping should be rare exception, not everyday occurrence (because same train everyday is busy).

This is for when trains are supremely extremely busy. Such as Ascot and Twickenham event days.

 

[OneTrackMinded]

This is for when trains are supremely extremely busy. Such as Ascot and Twickenham event days.

If such rarity is the case, maybe on those days there should be special allocations for a pair of 450s to cover those? Or maybe 458/4s? Two stray 444s? A pair of 458/5s (although I doubt they’d be worth maintaining just for these said special event days)? Just some suggestions

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Amazing how backwards everything is really - the new training course was supposed to shorten the amount of time it took to train drivers but instead it has somehow managed to stop the process entirely

I think we can definitely file it under the heading of "cunning plans"...?

Would it be too obvious a solution to simply revert to the original training plan until the issue with the shortened version is sorted out?

 

[OneTrackMinded]

Would it be too obvious a solution

Hit the nail on the head there…

 

[class701]

Run 10-car 701s as DOO (with platform dispatch), followed by 5-car 701s to serve the too scary/too short/too curvy/too dark platforms (yawn), thus bringing back the 4ph frequency. This would deal with the crush loading and the coupling issues. Basically run more flipping trains and actually serve the travelling public, rather than this current what's in it for me attitude. Don't do what works best for the drivers, the guards, SWR, the DfT, the RMT and ASLEF. It won't ever work.

 

[Towers]

Run 10-car 701s as DOO (with platform dispatch), followed by 5-car 701s to serve the too scary/too short/too curvy/too dark platforms (yawn), thus bringing back the 4ph frequency. This would deal with the crush loading and the coupling issues. Basically run more flipping trains and actually serve the travelling public, rather than this current what's in it for me attitude. Don't do what works best for the drivers, the guards, SWR, the DfT, the RMT and ASLEF. It won't ever work.

It ceases being “yawn” when some poor sod gets dragged under a train, sadly. The standards aren’t put in place for a laugh, however much frustration they might cause.

 

[spyinthesky]

It ceases being “yawn” when some poor sod gets dragged under a train, sadly. The standards aren’t put in place for a laugh, however much frustration they might cause.

Sadly the standards have been in place many years, yet there doesn’t seem to have been any ‘What If’ looked at.
issues like lighting, curves etc were the same ten years ago. There is nothing joined up in this project from the planning, build or operations.

 

[adc82140]

As an outsider, I find this whole thing incomprehensible. In the industry I work in, if a new bit of kit couldn't be brought into service, there would be daily contact between the manufacturer, management and the unions until a solution was thrashed out. Sitting on the problem for week after week with seemingly no movement just wouldn't be tolerated.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

As an outsider, I find this whole thing incomprehensible. In the industry I work in, if a new bit of kit couldn't be brought into service, there would be daily contact between the manufacturer, management and the unions until a solution was thrashed out. Sitting on the problem for week after week with seemingly no movement just wouldn't be tolerated.

I'd agree - but I suspect you don't have the added complication of a Government department in charge which is insisting on signing off every single bit of expenditure?

 

[wickham]

WEDNESDAY 05.02.25
Clapham Yard at 1100: 701528 701529 701025 701028 701034 701035 701046
Wimbledon at 1155
Wimbledon Park "Top Yard" 701039 701058 Inside Cleaning Shed, 701031 moving about. 701508 701510 701017 Top Yard sidings.
East Wimbledon Depot: 701043 in "new sidings" behind depot, 701026 inside depot visible through open door !
All visible from public roads.
NOTE: Two 701/5s at Clapham yard and two more at Wimbledon Top Yard.

 

[MasterPhillips]

A guard having no choice but to dispatch a train away from the middle cab happens on other TOCs regularly. Why is it suddenly now an issue. Is it due to the sheer number of station platforms the back cab does not fit on?

 

[norbitonflyer]

WEDNESDAY 05.02.25

Wimbledon Park "Top Yard" 701039 701058 Inside Cleaning Shed, 701031 moving about. 701508 701510 701017 Top Yard sidings.
East Wimbledon Depot: 701043 in "new sidings" behind depot, 701026 inside depot visible through open door !
All visible from public roads.

Of those, both 031 and 043 have been in passenger service today - 031 on the morning Windsor diagram and 043 on the evening Shepperton one.
Six units in total, although not all at the same time.

A guard having no choice but to dispatch a train away from the middle cab happens on other TOCs regularly. Why is it suddenly now an issue. Is it due to the sheer number of station platforms the back cab does not fit on?

It's due to sixty of the 75 ten-car trains not having middle cabs.

 

[adc82140]

I'd agree - but I suspect you don't have the added complication of a Government department in charge which is insisting on signing off every single bit of expenditure?

It's NHS so we very much do have government input. Just proves how differently the Department of Health and the Department of Transport see things

 

[MasterPhillips]

It's due to sixty of the 75 ten-car trains not having middle cabs.

I know, the point I’m making is that there are plenty of examples of trains with no middle cab having to stop at stations with short platforms. Meaning the guard has no choice but to dispatch from a passenger door. Whats the difference here?

 

[markle]

deleted

 

[Meerkat]

A rather illogical way to serve passengers, if there are lots of passengers, some of whom might want to alight, then skip the station, if hardly anyone around then stop.

Sort of makes it opposite of a request stop.

But its not really practical to say it's the rush hour so not stopping for another 2-3 hours until quiet time, and some of the proposed 701 routes have stations where next train is at least 30 minutes later. Skipping should be rare exception, not everyday occurrence (because same train everyday is busy).

At the relevant stations how long does it take to go to the next station and get the train back a stop?

 

[markle]

deleted

 

[Bikeman78]

I know, the point I’m making is that there are plenty of examples of trains with no middle cab having to stop at stations with short platforms. Meaning the guard has no choice but to dispatch from a passenger door. Whats the difference here?

I have been on trips on classes 142/143/156/158 where it was so full that the guard didn't even attempt to get into the adjacent cab. People have mentioned events at Ascot. In the down direction, the first short platform is Winnersh. Some people will get off at Martins Heron, Bracknell and Wokingham, so I would expect the train to be less than crush loaded by then. What is the first short platform in the up direction?

 

[pompeyfan]

I kind of feel this point is being over cooked, yes some services will be crush loaded, and unfortunately they may not be able to call at shorter platforms, however, how often are trains that busy that it’s possible for the guard to physically make their way through the train? The rear cab is a poor place to dispatch a 10 car train regardless because it won’t give a good perspective of the platform.

 

[Bikeman78]

One positive thing about the 701s is that they seem to keep time better on the Windsor line than the 450s. The latter usually struggle.