Class 701 'Aventra' trains for South Western Railway

[gmaguire]

701036 just stopped at platform 4 at Clapham Junction for a few minutes on test. I don’t think it opened the doors.

 

[Gag Halfrunt]

701036 just stopped at platform 4 at Clapham Junction for a few minutes on test. I don’t think it opened the doors.

That looks like 5Q36 from Windsor to Waterloo.

Realtime Trains | 5Q36 1633 Windsor & Eton Riverside to London Waterloo | 14/12/2023

Real-time train running information for 5Q36 1633 departure from Windsor & Eton Riverside to London Waterloo on 14/12/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[43096]

That looks like 5Q36 from Windsor to Waterloo.

Realtime Trains | 5Q36 1633 Windsor & Eton Riverside to London Waterloo | 14/12/2023

Real-time train running information for 5Q36 1633 departure from Windsor & Eton Riverside to London Waterloo on 14/12/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

I assume it’s gone back on 5Q37 and therefore adding to the general shambles on the Windsor lines again tonight.

 

[wickham]

The story of 701005: This unit has moved about quite a bit - I have the following:
20.07.20 Delivered Derby to Eastleigh.
12.04.21 Eastleigh to Alstom Widnes.
26.05.21 Widnes to Derby Chaddesden, then on to Eastleigh 27.05.21.
On 21.03.22 it was observed at Eastleigh but by 16.07.22 it was at Worksop.
14.12.23 Worksop to Derby Works,
So the question is - does anyone know the date it was sent from the SWR (Eastleigh or possibly Wimbledon?) to Worksop ? (Between March and July 2022):

 

[theblackwatch]

The story of 701005: This unit has moved about quite a bit - I have the following:
20.07.20 Delivered Derby to Eastleigh.
12.04.21 Eastleigh to Alstom Widnes.
26.05.21 Widnes to Derby Chaddesden, then on to Eastleigh 27.05.21.
On 21.03.22 it was observed at Eastleigh but by 16.07.22 it was at Worksop.
14.12.23 Worksop to Derby Works,
So the question is - does anyone know the date it was sent from the SWR (Eastleigh or possibly Wimbledon?) to Worksop ? (Between March and July 2022):

I have it logged as moving Eastleigh to Derby on 16/05/22 - unfortunately this still leaves an unresolved move between Derby and Worksop! (Unless perhaps the move on 16/05/22 was to Worksop rather than Derby?)

 

[Peter Sarf]

Update from RMT.

ROLE OF THE GUARD & EXTENSION OF DOO – SOUTH WESTERN RAILWAY

www.rmt.org.uk

Further to my previous correspondence with regards to the above matter, I can now advise you that an emergency meeting has been held with the company and our Guards & Retail Company Council and I have received an update report from the Lead Officer, together with a final/amended DCO Guards principles document and a rewritten DCO Rail Operator principles document.

The Lead Officer reports that amendments have been made to the Guards document and that the Rail Operator principles have been rewritten and are now a shadow of the Guards document. The Lead Officer also reports that the company has confirmed that the DOO(NP)/ECS within the principles will not have any effect on the ongoing discussions outside of the 701 project and that this is only agreed for the soft launch. The Lead Officer and our Reps believe that the documents should be agreed for the soft launch and reviewed 4-6 weeks into the soft launch and before the 701 comes into full service.

The matter has been subject to recent consideration by the union’s National Executive Committee who note the report from the Lead Officer and the updated documents provided. The Executive Committee are encouraged to see efforts being made by the company to ensure some level of consistency throughout the principles documents for the grades affected and it is the view of the Executive Committee that they can be agreed on a provisional basis for the duration of the ‘Soft Launch’ of the 701 stock.

Further, this agreement will be subject to review throughout this period and update reports will be placed back before the National Executive Committee as appropriate. Additionally, a meeting is to be arranged between the Lead Officer and relevant Representatives at such a time as the reviews are to be completed so as to allow thorough consideration to a permanent agreement.

My bold.
The pessimist in infers that this soft launch is not the beginning of full service use. It requires further agreement beyond the soft launch. So it might as well be a one off box ticking exercise before the end of 2023.

It is still progress though. Maybe not the beginning of the end but perhaps the end of the beginning.

 

[The_Train]

The story of 701005: This unit has moved about quite a bit - I have the following:
20.07.20 Delivered Derby to Eastleigh.
12.04.21 Eastleigh to Alstom Widnes.
26.05.21 Widnes to Derby Chaddesden, then on to Eastleigh 27.05.21.
On 21.03.22 it was observed at Eastleigh but by 16.07.22 it was at Worksop.
14.12.23 Worksop to Derby Works,
So the question is - does anyone know the date it was sent from the SWR (Eastleigh or possibly Wimbledon?) to Worksop ? (Between March and July 2022):

I don't have any record of it being at Eastleigh but I do have a record of it moving to Worksop on 16th May 2022

Edit: Just found clarification that it was 5Q15 Eastleigh to Worksop with 47749 doing the honours on 16th May 2022

 

[fgwrich]

My bold.
The pessimist in infers that this soft launch is not the beginning of full service use. It requires further agreement beyond the soft launch. So it might as well be a one off box ticking exercise before the end of 2023.

Wouldn't be the first time First Group has done that (see TPE Mk3s). The countdown certainly is on though, 1 week to before Christmas, 2 before the end of the year. Will be, depending on how today's trip to Windsor went, see at least one finally, finally, enter some kind of service?

 

[wickham]

Many thanks to the above posters for the additional information regarding 701005 - that fills a gap. The odd thing about this unit is that it DID do mileage while at Eastleigh, so one wonders why it has had to go back - perhaps it was lacking something (like seats !!).

 

[Trainbike46]

Many thanks to the above posters for the additional information regarding 701005 - that fills a gap. The odd thing about this unit is that it DID do mileage while at Eastleigh, so one wonders why it has had to go back - perhaps it was lacking something (like seats !!).

Alternatively, an issue may have been identified while doing mileage and it is heading there to get it resolved?

At the end of the day, one of the purposes of doing mileage is to identifying and resolving any issues before units enter service

 

[Vanmanyo]

At the end of the day, one of the purposes of doing mileage is to identifying and resolving any issues before units enter service

I'm sure they've had fun on the issues front

 

[pompeyfan]

Update from RMT.

ROLE OF THE GUARD & EXTENSION OF DOO – SOUTH WESTERN RAILWAY

www.rmt.org.uk

That’s a lot of words to not say very much. Still as clear as mud as to what the original agreement was. It reads like RMT believed SWR moved the goalposts, but doesn’t say how they were moved, and what the new agreed temporary method of working is.

Very strange.

 

[Snow1964]

My bold.
The pessimist in infers that this soft launch is not the beginning of full service use. It requires further agreement beyond the soft launch. So it might as well be a one off box ticking exercise before the end of 2023.

It is still progress though. Maybe not the beginning of the end but perhaps the end of the beginning.

Lots of words, which seem to say interim agreement for now.

But not really clear to me if there are further amendments pending, or if it just hasn't been written up as a legal agreement document, or if there hasn't yet been a full meeting of the RMT executive to formally ratify it.

What does NP stand for in DOO(NP)/ECS

ROLE OF THE GUARD & EXTENSION OF DOO – SOUTH WESTERN RAILWAY

www.rmt.org.uk

 

[Vanmanyo]

What does NP stand for in DOO(NP)/ECS

I believe it means Non-passenger as it also mentions ECS there too.

 

[AJDesiro]

I believe it means Non-passenger as it also mentions ECS there too.

Presumably, it just means DOO for non-passenger/ECS moves.

 

[Snow1964]

Presumably, it just means DOO for non-passenger/ECS moves.

I wondered that, it seemed unnecessarily long acronym as couldn't think why would need both NP and ECS separately on SWR, as can't have a passenger ECS or non-passenger train that isn't empty

 

[Goldfish62]

My bold.
The pessimist in infers that this soft launch is not the beginning of full service use. It requires further agreement beyond the soft launch. So it might as well be a one off box ticking exercise before the end of 2023.

It is still progress though. Maybe not the beginning of the end but perhaps the end of the beginning.

Just extend the soft launch to last 30 years and involve all 90 units.

Just to be clear - I'm not being serious...

 

[norbitonflyer]

2U91 and 2U92 now shown on RTT (Q-coded) all next week (Mon-Fri)

.....and they've vanished again

 

[Vanmanyo]

.....and they've vanished again

Yep I can't see anything on it

 

[TEW]

.....and they've vanished again

Yes. Not happening this year now apparently.

 

[Invincible]

There is a test run today from Feltham to Windsor, Waterloo and Clapham. Could this be a 701?

Realtime Trains | 5Q17 1903 Windsor & Eton Riverside to London Waterloo | 15/12/2023

Real-time train running information for 5Q17 1903 departure from Windsor & Eton Riverside to London Waterloo on 15/12/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[Goldfish62]

There is a test run today from Feltham to Windsor, Waterloo and Clapham. Could this be a 701?

Realtime Trains | 5Q17 1903 Windsor & Eton Riverside to London Waterloo | 15/12/2023

Real-time train running information for 5Q17 1903 departure from Windsor & Eton Riverside to London Waterloo on 15/12/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Highly likely given they're all over the Windsor lines network on test now.

Yes. Not happening this year now apparently.

No surprise whatsoever.

 

[swr444]

Yes. Not happening this year now apparently.

Source? I was told that the 21st was the proposed new date, makes sense seeming RMT have agreed to it.

 

[800001]

Source? I was told that the 21st was the proposed new date, makes sense seeming RMT have agreed to it.

21st is the date that has been communicated via sources from within company.

 

[Boski]

Update from RMT.

ROLE OF THE GUARD & EXTENSION OF DOO – SOUTH WESTERN RAILWAY

www.rmt.org.uk

Anyone know what exactly the rmt has agreed says nothing in here as to what it is they have actually agreed?!

 

[amazon1675]

Anyone know what exactly the rmt has agreed says nothing in here as to what it is they have actually agreed?!

Would a move to OOLR void all this endless nonsense and allow a new set of rules to be created ? Back in the mists of time didn't someone mention drivers get an pay enhancement for driving these units that in fact none have driven thusfar?

 

[pompeyfan]

Would a move to OOLR void all this endless nonsense and allow a new set of rules to be created ? Back in the mists of time didn't someone mention drivers get an pay enhancement for driving these units that in fact none have driven thusfar?

The 4 year deal in 2018 was for DOO working, but for there to be a guard on every passenger train. There was some debate whether SWT drivers had DOO in their contract originally, but seemingly that wasn’t iron clad for SWR to pay again to include drivers doing the doors.

 

[Peter Sarf]

My speculation (cos there is not a lot to go on). Is that once SWR saw how vague/temporary the unions agreement was they decided not to bother with a soft launch that was at risk of not continuing as a steady roll out of the 701s but just a flash in the pan one (or two) off. No point ramping up training and getting units ready for an unsure use.

Importantly this indicates to me a POSITIVE in that SWR were going for a soft launch continuing with a steady roll out.

The union letter is so carefully worded that there is obviously plenty of politics here. Not that anyone is going to be surprised and I point the blame in no particular direction.

 

[Goldfish62]

My speculation (cos there is not a lot to go on). Is that once SWR saw how vague/temporary the unions agreement was they decided not to bother with a soft launch that was at risk of not continuing as a steady roll out of the 701s but just a flash in the pan one (or two) off. No point ramping up training and getting units ready for an unsure use.

Importantly this indicates to me a POSITIVE in that SWR were going for a soft launch continuing with a steady roll out.

The union letter is so carefully worded that there is obviously plenty of politics here. Not that anyone is going to be surprised and I point the blame in no particular direction.

Indeed, and the RMT letter doesn't strike me as combative at all. Purely guessing, it feels to me that the RMT and company are closer aligned on the final detail of the agreement than some are suggesting.

 

[RichSwitch]

It reads like RMT believed SWR moved the goalposts, but doesn’t say how they were moved, and what the new agreed temporary method of working is.

More likely DfT reminded SWR about the goalposts.

My guess, and it is a guess, is that there was miscommunication and then misunderstanding. If something in the document was ambiguous on the DOO(NP)/ECS, for example, then quite legitimately RMT would want clarification before any soft launch.

I’m intrigued by what ‘soft launch’ actually means in terms of diagrams.

Given all of the issues that there have been, it makes sense to ‘bash one about a bit’. In-service trials will highlight any issues that still need rectification and which cannot be done solely by running them about empty.