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Class 701 'Aventra' trains for South Western Railway

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4MW is the 701 max at ten cars but based on acceleration vids ive seen via gps they dont quite match up to 720 acceleration so its likely they are power restricted but given a decent power output to still outperform most EMUs on DC.

720s seem to have a max output of 2000kw at 5 cars according to wiki . So an educated guess is that if an aventra like a 701 geared to the same speed cannot hit 60mph in 42 seconds. It likely isnt able to use max power based on comparisons
This is a complete guess but a driver told me that acceleration will improve on the 701s once the software is stable, so maybe that gap might become less when happens. Who knows, but it's in SWR's best interest to use the train to its max capacity. Also I should add that I think third rail dc has some restrictions which all units have to follow up until a certain speed, I can't remember what they are but I believe it's universal.
 
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Nicholas Lewis

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I wonder if t

ive heard that. I think it should probably be bolstered to handle greater power feeding. At least the criteria should be to enable the train to reach max speed in a reasonable tmeframe.

perhaps after 20 years they should be updated again? It sounds idealistic but better for train performance. At least in my opinion.


4.5MW sounds reasonable.
4MW is the 701 max at ten cars but based on acceleration vids ive seen via gps they dont quite match up to 720 acceleration so its likely they are power restricted but given a decent power output to still outperform most EMUs on DC.

720s seem to have a max output of 2000kw at 5 cars according to wiki . So an educated guess is that if an aventra like a 701 geared to the same speed cannot hit 60mph in 42 seconds. It likely isnt able to use max power based on comparisons
Remember 2MW is the continuous rating of the motors but if the power is available, which it is on 25kV, they can be run beyond continuous rating for short term periods upto 110-115% of rating.
 

hwl

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I wonder if t

ive heard that. I think it should probably be bolstered to handle greater power feeding. At least the criteria should be to enable the train to reach max speed in a reasonable tmeframe.

perhaps after 20 years they should be updated again? It sounds idealistic but better for train performance. At least in my opinion.
As I pointed out above (but seeming ignored by everyone) and repeated below what Wiki and other sources (E.g. P5) says is the nominal spec on AC. DC is lower, the question is how much...
On AC: 2.0MW 5car, 4.0MW 10car. DC will be lower than this
The most modern EMUs (i.e. Aventra and Desiro City) have very sophisticated mechanisms to adjust current draw on both AC and DC according to supply voltage (i.e. if the voltage is low the max current is reduced as low voltage is a sign of power supply suffering so max power is not a simple assumption) and some times location too using GPS (e.g. Class 700). Hence there is no simple answer to the DC max as it is very variable in practice.

For example LO 5 car 710s (only used singly not in multiple) can use up to 2.25MW traction power on AC but between 1.55MW and 1.725MW on DC (depending on 3rd rail voltage). It is likely 701 will be similar.
4.5MW sounds reasonable.

That is 4.5MW between X trains (for both traction and auxiliary loads), where X is between 0 and 3 (some times more) with trains accelerating, maintaining speed coasting and braking (with some regenerative braking) hence 4.5MW often it isn't that reasonable as it is thinly spread. Hence the max limits per train are typically set at 50-75% of 4.5MW with appropriate limits per unit for overall train length.
4MW is the 701 max at ten cars but based on acceleration vids ive seen via gps they dont quite match up to 720 acceleration so its likely they are power restricted but given a decent power output to still outperform most EMUs on DC.
Weighing less (often substantially less) does help.
720s seem to have a max output of 2000kw at 5 cars according to wiki . So an educated guess is that if an aventra like a 701 geared to the same speed cannot hit 60mph in 42 seconds. It likely isnt able to use max power based on comparisons
More than likely and no comparison needed - they can't!

Also I should add that I think third rail dc has some restrictions which all units have to follow up until a certain speed, I can't remember what they are but I believe it's universal.
All EMUs (AC and DC) are limited by adhesion (or rather adhesion assumptions in the software on newer stock) at lower speeds. This means they take less power at low speed. How much less will depend on vehicle mass, gearing, power availability, power draw limiting (especially on DC) and OEM software assumptions. The adhesion limiting speed below which there is reduced power draw will vary between 18-65*mph (*Cl.374).
 
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brad465

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I don't know what the record is for longest thread in terms of duration open, and/or number of posts in it, but if we're talking 2026 before a full rollout is completed this thread must be up there for breaking it.
 
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More than likely and no comparison needed - they can't!
I do want to mention though if you are to compare the 720 gps footage and 701 gps footage (which as I've said multiple times before I don't believe in), the 701 outperforms or matches the 720s initial acceleration up to about 35 or 40, which I can only guess means some sort of different curve (if this is even remotely accurate)
 

CarrotPie

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I don't know what the record is for longest thread in terms of duration open, and/or number of posts in it, but if we're talking 2026 before a full rollout is completed this thread must be up there for breaking it.
Some of the threads in the Quizzes & Games forum have over 7000 pages, so quite hard to beat!
I do want to mention though if you are to compare the 720 gps footage and 701 gps footage (which as I've said multiple times before I don't believe in), the 701 outperforms or matches the 720s initial acceleration up to about 35 or 40, which I can only guess means some sort of different curve (if this is even remotely accurate)
Are the 701s geared exactly the same as the 720s, or is the former more suited to fast acceleration becaue if its planned use?
 

100andthirty

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There is a difference external to the class 720 and 701 trains that significantly affects performance. That is the power supply. 25 kV supplying the class 720 is capable of supporting higher performance than is possible on the 750 Vdc powered class 701.
 
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Screenshot 2024-03-31 at 17.36.18.png
I think there's quite a big missed opportunity here with these screens. Considering they're right by the doors (unlike on other aventras) surely they could have been used to display other information, such as maybe what side the doors will open
 
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I do want to mention though if you are to compare the 720 gps footage and 701 gps footage (which as I've said multiple times before I don't believe in), the 701 outperforms or matches the 720s initial acceleration up to about 35 or 40, which I can only guess means some sort of different curve (if this is even remotely accurate)
Made a message earlier but i dont know what happened , its cool to see my video being used (the class 720 acceleration) did that back in 2021. Ive been trying to create a portfolio of train acceleration for the uk rail fandom. Glad to see its actually spreading a bit :^)
 

ConnorP

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View attachment 155491
I think there's quite a big missed opportunity here with these screens. Considering they're right by the doors (unlike on other aventras) surely they could have been used to display other information, such as maybe what side the doors will open
These screens definitely could show more information, given that half the screen is taken up by a SWR logo! I don't know if displaying which side the door would open on would work at stations such as Waterloo and Clapham Junction though.

What would be good is a scrolling map similar to those on Class 345s with upcoming stations, alternating with service alerts of other routes when approaching stations (for example, London Overground and District line updates when approaching Richmond).
 
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These screens definitely could show more information, given that half the screen is taken up by a SWR logo! I don't know if displaying which side the door would open on would work at stations such as Waterloo and Clapham Junction though.

What would be good is a scrolling map similar to those on Class 345s with upcoming stations, alternating with service alerts of other routes when approaching stations (for example, London Overground and District line updates when approaching Richmond).
Yes that's very true, I agree with all of that. The logo is such a massive waste of space. Doesn't even feature the Arterio branding... seems like it was forgotten about. A simple software upgrade could really step up the passenger experience with little cost
 
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I do want to mention though if you are to compare the 720 gps footage and 701 gps footage (which as I've said multiple times before I don't believe in), the 701 outperforms or matches the 720s initial acceleration up to about 35 or 40, which I can only guess means some sort of different curve (if this is even remotely accurate)
GPS Footage can be useful if using it as a measure of how fast they get up to speed, esspecially if recorded again and again. Its clear from multiple GPS footage videos that DC trains are substantially slower.

In the 701 footage, its hard to gauge why they are similar on the lower end of speed. My guess is that the train is lighter than 720s (which they are) and doesent put as much stress on the motors to get them going (i could be very wrong)

Another could be that the 701s power draw (likely a true factor here) continues to rise until a certain point whereas the 720s power draw continues onwards for a longer time until perhaps mid speed. I believe there is a speed or set speeds to which power draw stops rising and plateaus and the trains acceleration rate will continue with that fixed power draw and then fatigue eventually over time and get slower as it nears the higher end rotational speed of the gear ratio and motor RPM. Again i could be wrong. Just a guess

Personally if theres a reliable GPS device that gives consistent results i dont see how you can rule it out as a non useful tool to gauge how quickly a unit gets up to speed. Will it be pin point accurate, no. But its sure close to make a comparison between trains. Again if multiple takes are done and weather variables are decent. I do it all the time.
 

73128

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These screens definitely could show more information, given that half the screen is taken up by a SWR logo! I don't know if displaying which side the door would open on would work at stations such as Waterloo and Clapham Junction though.

What would be good is a scrolling map similar to those on Class 345s with upcoming stations, alternating with service alerts of other routes when approaching stations (for example, London Overground and District line updates when approaching Richmond).
Service status alerts for Underground and Overground, along with calling points, individual coach loading etc. all appear on the transverse screens above the door areas (i.e. so that they can be seen by the whole coach).
 

hwl

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Another could be that the 701s power draw (likely a true factor here) continues to rise until a certain point whereas the 720s power draw continues onwards for a longer time until perhaps mid speed. I believe there is a speed or set speeds to which power draw stops rising and plateaus and the trains acceleration rate will continue with that fixed power draw
As previous mentioned EMUs are adhesion rather than power limited at lower speeds, above the threshold speed the reduced power on DC results in lower TE, below that threshold speed it doesn't - power draw rises from very low when almost stationery to max at the threshold speed.

and then fatigue eventually over time and get slower as it nears the higher end rotational speed of the gear ratio and motor RPM. Again i could be wrong. Just a guess
No "fatigue" involved you are confusing Power (kW) and Force /Tractive effort (KN), acceleration is all about TE not power (F=m*a). TE (kN) = Power at rail (kW) / velocity (ms^-1). The power draw remains high but the TE reduces naturally (newtonian mechanics) with increasing speed as the energy dissipation per unit distance reduces.
 

bahnause

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Personally if theres a reliable GPS device that gives consistent results i dont see how you can rule it out as a non useful tool to gauge how quickly a unit gets up to speed. Will it be pin point accurate, no. But its sure close to make a comparison between trains. Again if multiple takes are done and weather variables are decent. I do it all the time.
The GPS data is interesting, but unfortunately not particularly reliable. There are too many variables, such as the driving style of the driver, the load factor of the vehicles, OHL / third rail voltage during the acceleration, gradient, the amount of power drawn from other trains in the area etc.
A comparison would therefore require a series of tests under almost identical conditions. Or you could use a tractive effort diagram like the one in the attachment and do some calculations. I couldn't find any for the 701 or 720 though.

IMG_0037.jpeg
 

hwl

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The GPS data is interesting, but unfortunately not particularly reliable. There are too many variables, such as the driving style of the driver, the load factor of the vehicles, OHL / third rail voltage during the acceleration, gradient, the amount of power drawn from other trains in the area etc.
A comparison would therefore require a series of tests under almost identical conditions. Or you could use a tractive effort diagram like the one in the attachment and do some calculations. I couldn't find any for the 701 or 720 though.

View attachment 155528
What rolling stock are those TE curves from? - the max traction power at the wheel is ~5.9MW.
 
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The GPS data is interesting, but unfortunately not particularly reliable. There are too many variables, such as the driving style of the driver, the load factor of the vehicles, OHL / third rail voltage during the acceleration, gradient, the amount of power drawn from other trains in the area etc.
A comparison would therefore require a series of tests under almost identical conditions. Or you could use a tractive effort diagram like the one in the attachment and do some calculations. I couldn't find any for the 701 or 720 though.

View attachment 155528
When talking about "reliable' im reffering to the fact that its a good refrence for performance when compared to other units. Its like an indication of what units seem to perform better towards higher speeds when we account for repeated analysis of the same trains over time.

.Factors like driving style can be accounted for based on repeated footage and feel of the trajn upon acceleration and making a judgement. Its not perfect though

.Taking footage of the same trains in other areas that may vary in gradient

. Assessing how fast the starting acceleration usually is to gauge if drivers are using full power or not ( its more an educated guess with that one)

When comparing a class 701 to class 465/1s, majority of the GPS footage of the class 465/1s usually put them in the 75 + second range when hitting 60mph , vs footage of class 701s hitting 57 mph in under 60 seconds perhaps indicating it will hit 60 mph in much less than 75seconds , although in this case the class 701s haven't really been demonstrated to hit 60mph in any footage thus far, but we can gauge how multiple filmed takes of GPS footage at lower speeds may affect the long term acceleration towards higher speeds until we actually see it. With experience of other units being filmed also.


Is it a reliable variable for gauging why the traim accelerates the way they do? No, youd have to consider the factors you mentioned prior. Esspecially weight and software programmming etc of the units themselves and so on. GPS cant predict that. But it just gives you an idea.

But when we look at GPS , it can show (if multiple different takes are done in different places on the same train types) how they perform as compared to other units. With the aventra fleet , the GPS footage shows so far that they repeatedly hit mid speed faster than most footage of other third rail trains, meaning they likely have a much better weight to power ratio than other subsequent units.

That being said i absolutely dont think GPS is the proffesional way to determine a trains output at the wheels etc. Its just a laymens way of comparing trains for fun but making speculative guesses over time.


Class 701s are new on the block so who knows how valid the videos we have seen so far are from a non drivers perspective until more footage is released or other data sourves gathered etc.

As previous mentioned EMUs are adhesion rather than power limited at lower speeds, above the threshold speed the reduced power on DC results in lower TE, below that threshold speed it doesn't - power draw rises from very low when almost stationery to max at the threshold speed.


No "fatigue" involved you are confusing Power (kW) and Force /Tractive effort (KN), acceleration is all about TE not power (F=m*a). TE (kN) = Power at rail (kW) / velocity (ms^-1). The power draw remains high but the TE reduces naturally (newtonian mechanics) with increasing speed as the energy dissipation per unit distance reduces.
Interesting, interesting. This adhesion thing is a new thing i had never thought of. Inwill need to research or get more info on it.
 
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hwl

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Interesting, interesting. This adhesion thing is a new thing i had never thought of. I will need to research or get more info on it.
The adhesion limit is the horizontal line at 400kN in the chart @bahnause posted, in that chart µ=0.255. (A software limit in practice on modern stock)
The solid blue line is the max (short term) TE curve (~6.0MW) and the dashed blue line the continuous curve (~4.0MW), as you can see the adhesion limit - power limit threshold speed varies depending on power.

To get a reasonable understanding you would need lots of GPS data to establish the adhesion limit and various curves and threshold speeds at different power levels.
 

wickham

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It look as though a bit of a swop around was planned for today (02/04) but it may not be happening:
69009 has gone light from Eastleigh to Wimbledon Park to work 5Q85 0924 WPS to Marchwood but at time of writing (1120) it had not left:
The next working after this was booked to be 5Q76 1221 Marchwood to Eastleigh Depot. In the mean time a 5Q60 1019 Eastleigh Depot to WPS was booked to run (presumably a 701) under own power, but this has not left either !
Ho hum, try again another day ?
 

3973EXL

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5Q85 149 late
reported as 701037 on Live Rail = Later amended to 701014

5Q85 terminated at Eastleigh
 
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PG

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I don't know what the record is for longest thread in terms of duration open, and/or number of posts in it, but if we're talking 2026 before a full rollout is completed this thread must be up there for breaking it.
Some of the threads in the Quizzes & Games forum have over 7000 pages, so quite hard to beat!
Ignoring the Quizzes & Games forum we've got the Caledonian Sleeper thread going since January 2019 and currently sitting at 528 pages long, now onto post #15824.
 

wickham

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701037 moving to Marchwood has actually been in passenger service !

5Q69 Eastleigh to WPS is now shown as cancelled. Wonder if the Marchwood to Eastleigh will actually run - time will tell. Indeed, will Marchwood signalbox stay open with this excessive late running ?
 

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