Class 701 'Aventra' trains for South Western Railway

[gmaguire]

I had my first ride on a 701 just now, which was 701037. I think it had the old Celia announcements.

 

[OneTrackMinded]

I had my first ride on a 701 just now, which was 701037. I think it had the old Celia announcements.

Yes they all have them. There's plans to change it to Elinor at some point when a general PIS update happens.

 

[DCtrains]

Don’t know if this has already been mentioned but SWR plan to run another 701 diagram all day (incl. peaks) from next Monday

 

[OneTrackMinded]

Don’t know if this has already been mentioned but SWR plan to run another 701 diagram all day (incl. peaks) from next Monday

Yeah it has been mentioned, most recent discussion on the last page. Although the information so far says it's not going to be all day, and instead will do 2U09, 2U16, 2U19, 2U26, 2U29, 2U36 and then return to the depot where a 450 will replace it.

 

[Taunton]

Wholly by chance I had my first ride in one today.

Upsides

Seemed notably smooth and quiet, and ran nicely over points and crossings. more so than just about any other recent stock.

Presumably more space as they are running 10 cars where there used to be eight.

The inter-car wide gangways are well done (not all such on other recent stocks are).

For the first time ever I can recall on SW suburban services, tickets were inspected (plus passengers with passes were asked where they were travelling to).

Downsides

The face-to-back seats have been squeezed up YET AGAIN, to the extent I felt hard jammed against the seatback in front. Would be really difficult with another passenger alongside. I honestly don't want to sit with my knees up by my ears.

The grab rails on the seats protrude too far into the aisle so you bang your hips on them when moving along.

The PA was too soft and inaudible.

There was a strange looseness and periodic movement of the floor at my (window) seat. I first thought it was transmitted from people walking up the aisle, but think it's actually vibration from some underfloor equipment. The floor just felt shallow and squishy, like walking in a Portakabin.

There seems no improvement in the dwell time at stations or the time to release doors after stopping (which I thought was meant to be a key reason for the huge expenditure).

Despite what must be considerable power, a lengthy signal stop before Clapham Junction never had a minute recovered by the time I got off at Whitton, and I now read nothing had been recovered by Windsor.

The internal information screens seem to show "See It Say It ..." far too much!

 

[OneTrackMinded]

Despite what must be considerable power,

Out of interest what do you mean by this? If "power" means acceleration, yes these trains have excellent acceleration

The PA was too soft and inaudible.

Luckily this is due for an upgrade at some point. They're using announcements from older stock, which also seem to have some sort of robotic intervention as they sound different to the originals. They're quite tiring.

There seems no improvement in the dwell time at stations or the time to release doors after stopping (which I thought was meant to be a key reason for the huge expenditure).

Likely this will change when all the trains are in service and the timetables can be upgraded which will also allow the trains to use their full acceleration (without catching up to the slower trains ahead)

Other than that I agree with your likes and dislikes of the travel experience, although I'll add it's important to remember how much of an improvement these are from the older stock like the 455.

 

[Taunton]

Out of interest what do you mean by this? If "power" means acceleration, yes these trains have excellent acceleration

it's important to remember how much of an improvement these are from the older stock like the 455.

Really? The train this morning took 62 minutes for Waterloo to Windsor. In contrast, in 1958 the equivalent half hourly service took 50 minutes - and that was with dilapidated pre-war 2-BIL units, plus dividing at Staines for Weybridge, which portion left there first!

5 x 2-BIL for 10 cars would have 2,500hp. As I understand it a 10-car 701 has 5,360hp.

I'll give you the air conditioning. Otherwise I see no improvement over a 455 (which I did this trip last time on).

 

[OneTrackMinded]

I'll give you the air conditioning. Otherwise I see no improvement over a 455 (which I did this trip last time on).

Plug sockets, usb ports, toilets, walk through carriages, 10 cars over 8, much more standing room, much larger PIS, a lot more seats, mini tables at group seats, wider doors, much quieter, etc.

Really? The train this morning took 62 minutes for Waterloo to Windsor. In contrast, in 1958 the equivalent half hourly service took 50 minutes - and that was with dilapidated pre-war 2-BIL units, plus dividing at Staines for Weybridge, which portion left there first!

Dwell times are a lot longer than they used to be back then. Slam door trains allowed people to get off even before the train had stopped moving, as you can see in old film, and as such the deboarding/boarding process was a lot quicker. Not to mention the lack of safety protocols during dispatch compared to today.

Even if you don't believe the acceleration to be impressive, it's from a physical standpoint much better than the trains it's replacing, like the 455. 0.96m/s^2 (or even the reduced current version of 0.7m/s^2) vs 0.58m/s^2 is a massive difference. But likely it won't make up for sitting at stations for large periods of time.

Dwell times was something that this franchise was supposed to improve, and innovations on the 701s such as automatic braking and door opening and operational items like new timetables were going to contribute, however the majority was scrapped after COVID.

 

[Big Jumby 74]

Dwell times are a lot longer than they used to be back then. Slam door trains allowed people to get off even before the train had stopped moving

I still remember the changes that (we) had to make when the likes of SUB's and EPB's departed. The vast majority of station stops were timed as a 'tick' stop, shown in the working timetables eg 11.02, which equated to 20 second stops. With the arrival of newer stock and door release/control taken over by the guard, it soon became apparent that schedules, peak time in particular, as had previously existed could not be kept, and so certain busier stations (as was) were adjusted to include 'a' stops (one minute). IIRC the first such stations on the Main Sub of the SW to be so adjusted were Wimbledon, Clapham Junction and Vauxhall. Not sure if Earlsfield was included initially, may have been?

 

[norbitonflyer]

10 cars over 8,

Dwell times are a lot longer than they used to be back then. Slam door trains allowed people to get off even before the train had stopped moving, as you can see in old film, and as such the deboarding/boarding process was a lot quicker. Not to mention the lack of safety protocols during dispatch compared to today.

Until they scrapped the 456s we already had ten cars.

Dwell times is an interesting one though. Indeed, up to a hundred passengers could have left an 8-EPB before it had even stopped, but dispatch could be a tedious process as latecomers would keep opening the doors again. (I have even managed to board a moving train, but it's not something I would try again)

 

[Taunton]

I still remember the changes that (we) had to make when the likes of SUB's and EPB's departed. The vast majority of station stops were timed as a 'tick' stop, shown in the working timetables eg 11.02, which equated to 20 second stops. With the arrival of newer stock and door release/control taken over by the guard, it soon became apparent that schedules, peak time in particular, as had previously existed could not be kept

The DLR certainly manages 20 second stops, with two separate cycles for closing, firstly all except the conductor's door, and then that one. London Underground can do the same at lesser stations late at night, such as the top end of the Northern Line.

 

[Big Jumby 74]

The DLR certainly manages 20 second stops

Or just run with doors open. London ITV news yesterday...

 

[Goldfish62]

I'll give you the air conditioning. Otherwise I see no improvement over a 455 (which I did this trip last time on).

Toilets.

 

[Wolfie]

They only have 2 units, the rest are with Southeastern now. How long before SWR start asking for some of them back the way things are going?

They can have some clapped out Networkers out of storage instead, lol. Why should Southeastern always be the loser?

 

[Goldfish62]

They can have some clapped out Networkers out of storage instead, lol. Why should Southeastern always be the loser?

I agree.

And that suggestion is not as nuts as it sounds. Look how quickly Scotrail got temporary operation of 365s up and running. But with SWR there'd no doubt be a million reasons why it couldn't be done.

 

[CarrotPie]

The DLR certainly manages 20 second stops, with two separate cycles for closing, firstly all except the conductor's [sic] door, and then that one. London Underground can do the same at lesser stations late at night, such as the top end of the Northern Line.

They can also run with the PSA closing all doors simultaneously from the "cab" and using the platform mirrors to double-check the PTI.

 

[norbitonflyer]

Yeah it has been mentioned, most recent discussion on the last page. Although the information so far says it's not going to be all day, and instead will do 2U09, 2U16, 2U19, 2U26, 2U29, 2U36 and then return to the depot where a 450 will replace it.

.......and so it has. RTT showimng 2U16 arriving at Waterloo as I type, operated by 701043

 

[Goldfish62]

.......and so it has. RTT showimng 2U16 arriving at Waterloo as I type, operated by 701043

Presumably it doesn't run all day because it has to utilise the small number of senior train crew that were trained up for the soft launch.

 

[swr444]

Presumably it doesn't run all day because it has to utilise the small number of senior train crew that were trained up for the soft launch.

True, but it shows that ASLEF have agreed to it working a proper diagram, so things may be finally moving in the right direction

 

[Goldfish62]

True, but it shows that ASLEF have agreed to it working a proper diagram, so things may be finally moving in the right direction

Here's hoping!

 

[Islineclear3_1]

Plug sockets, usb ports, toilets, walk through carriages, 10 cars over 8, much more standing room, much larger PIS, a lot more seats, mini tables at group seats, wider doors, much quieter, etc.

Toilets.

2-Bils had toilets....

 

[Bigfoot]

2-Bils had toilets....

So for almost 40 years the 455 has been a downgrade.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

So for almost 40 years the 455 has been a downgrade.

Clearly so !

 

[Goldfish62]

So for almost 40 years the 455 has been a downgrade.

Yes! Such were the complaints in the first few years of their introduction that BR/NSE stated that they would investigate fitting toilets. Nothing happened of course. Instead the 456s were built, with toilets, but sadly they couldn't withstand the punishment meted out by the clientele of south London.

 

[norbitonflyer]

So for almost 40 years the 455 has been a downgrade.

455s were not initially used on services that had previously had toilets. They replaced 4EPBs and 4SUBs.
And there were NOLs on the Windsor/ Weybridge services until HAPs came in.
Reading had BILs, HALs, CORS, CIGs, VEPs and latterly 458s and 450s. Until very recently they also had 1st class.

 

[Goldfish62]

Reading had BILs, HALs, CORS, CIGs, VEPs and latterly 458s and 450s. Until very recently they also had 1st class.

BEPs and CEPs as well!

There has been more than average variety on Reading services over the years.

BEPs and CEPs as well!

There has been more than average variety on Reading services over the years.

I forgot 707 as well!

 

[SEtrains]

Another 701 off for storage today, anyone able to confirm unit number?

Thanks

 

[Towers]

Yes! Such were the complaints in the first few years of their introduction that BR/NSE stated that they would investigate fitting toilets. Nothing happened of course. Instead the 456s were built, with toilets, but sadly they couldn't withstand the punishment meted out by the clientele of south London.

This is, surely, exactly the point - fitting toilets on London suburban stock in the 1980s would have resulted in nothing but endless expenditure putting right the inevitable vandalism, which would have been absolutely rife. I very much imagine that they’d have spent significant periods of time locked out of use, and they wouldn’t have been remotely pleasant to use even when they were available.

Things are very different now with internal CCTV and a much greater focus on staffing (DOO excepted), although of course even now train toilets are still hammered by the graffiti yobs, but back then with precious few security measures it would have made sense not to fit them on suburban stock. Back in the 80s & 90s the upper decks of London buses routinely suffered enormous vandalism issues, I recall when CCTV was rolled out as a revolutionary and somewhat extreme measure to combat it!

 

[Wolfie]

This is, surely, exactly the point - fitting toilets on London suburban stock in the 1980s would have resulted in nothing but endless expenditure putting right the inevitable vandalism, which would have been absolutely rife. I very much imagine that they’d have spent significant periods of time locked out of use, and they wouldn’t have been remotely pleasant to use even when they were available.

Things are very different now with internal CCTV and a much greater focus on staffing (DOO excepted), although of course even now train toilets are still hammered by the graffiti yobs, but back then with precious few security measures it would have made sense not to fit them on suburban stock. Back in the 80s & 90s the upper decks of London buses routinely suffered enormous vandalism issues, I recall when CCTV was rolled out as a revolutionary and somewhat extreme measure to combat it!

I would, was it not for the fact that the pretty much contemporary 317s were fitted with toilets, be inclined to agree.

 

[lewisf]

Given the state of the toilets on the 700s, the ones one the 701s won’t stay pristine for long

Although, credit to Thameslink as although the toilets look shocking, they do still work