Class 701 'Aventra' trains for South Western Railway

[43066]

From what I’ve heard they’re in no rush. It’s likely going to be another 3 month or so period before we see a new service similar to the original soft launch diagram to this new one

Reading between the lines, they probably need a resolution to the ASLEF dispute before anything can move forward.

Roughly speaking, it bears the same relationship to you local sewage treatment works as does your computer printer to a newspaper's web offset rotary printing press.

Protec (a German maker of such things) claimed the first in service in the UK in 2019, in a Scotrail Class 334 (see thread). But that's just one as a demo/trial, and SWR claimed the 701s as the first full fleet to get them (as, if and when). There's an implication of Protec's silence that they didn't supply them, but I have not found another name.

Interesting - thanks!

 

[Goldfish62]

Reading between the lines, they probably need a resolution to the ASLEF dispute before anything can move forward.

Yet the ASLEF dispute hasn't prevented WMT progressively introducing its new trains, including Class 730 Aventras. C2C also introduced its 720s during the dispute.

This would point to prevailing industrial relations being significantly worse at SWR than elsewhere. Is this the case, can anyone say?

 

[43066]

Yet the ASLEF dispute hasn't prevented WMT progressively introducing its new trains, including Class 730 Aventras. C2C also introduced its 720s during the dispute.

This would point to prevailing industrial relations being significantly worse at SWR than elsewhere. Is this the case, can anyone say?

It’s possible that the training agreements for those fleets were signed at an earlier stage? I’m speculating, and as you say it would need someone on the inside who is willing and able to share the information to say for sure.

 

[Bigfoot]

Admittedly it's 3rd hand, but having spoken to a driver who is good friends with a driver who is driving the 701 regularly there are still many issues with them.

 

[gabrielhj07]

Admittedly it's 3rd hand, but having spoken to a driver who is good friends with a driver who is driving the 701 regularly there are still many issues with them.

New problems?

 

[Goldfish62]

Admittedly it's 3rd hand, but having spoken to a driver who is good friends with a driver who is driving the 701 regularly there are still many issues with them.

But not so many issues that one unit can be used daily on part of one diagram, obviously.

But, as we've all said several times before, who really knows what's going on?

The fact that we have several SWR staff on here and no one is able to say definitively what the issue is it does suggest to me that's it's not an internal company issue, but is external and between any of SWR, DfT and / or Alstom.

 

[DMckduck97]

It’s possible that the training agreements for those fleets were signed at an earlier stage? I’m speculating, and as you say it would need someone on the inside who is willing and able to share the information to say for sure.

In hindsight SWR should have seen the drivers joining the national dispute from the 2023 anniversary and onwards and got a training plan agreed prior to this. ASLEF I suspect will drag their heels as much as possible to prevent introduction on a wider scale.

I don't even think they are running any more route clearance trains to get more routes signed off for DCO at this point.

 

[Snow1964]

Admittedly it's 3rd hand, but having spoken to a driver who is good friends with a driver who is driving the 701 regularly there are still many issues with them.

Issues with drivers or trains, or both ?

 

[Goldfish62]

In hindsight SWR should have seen the drivers joining the national dispute from the 2023 anniversary and onwards and got a training plan agreed prior to this. ASLEF I suspect will drag their heels as much as possible to prevent introduction on a wider scale.

I don't even think they are running any more route clearance trains to get more routes signed off for DCO at this point.

But the introduction of the 701s isn't related to the national dispute.

Training on new rolling stock is a fundamental part of the job, is it not? ASLEF can't cherry-pick what parts the job description their members are going to undertake in pursuit of their pay dispute. Like all TUs they are limited to taking strike action, banning overtime and rest days and working to rule. That's why the often suggested action of not collecting revenue as part of a dispute cannot be undertaken in this country - it's in breach of contract and is not protected by the right to strike.

I still think it's something to do with SWR v DfT and probably a big dollop of SWR incompetence thrown in.

 

[43066]

But the introduction of the 701s isn't related to the national dispute.

Training on new rolling stock is a fundamental part of the job, is it not? ASLEF can't cherry-pick what parts the job description their members are going to undertake in pursuit of their pay dispute. Like all TUs they are limited to taking strike action, banning overtime and rest days and working to rule. That's why the often suggested action of not collecting revenue as part of a dispute cannot be undertaken in this country - it's in breach of contract and is not protected by the right to strike.

AIUI it usually isn’t covered by Ts and Cs because it occurs so rarely, and is so bespoke, that it makes sense to reach fleet specific training agreements. You then need ASLEF members to instruct and deliver the training, ASLEF reps to agree the arrangements for them to be released etc. I suppose the TOC could deliver the classroom bits of the training just with managers but, at some point, you’ll need instructors to do the handling aspects.

Of course normally this kind of thing would be fed into annual negotiations between TOC and union and resolved accordingly but, for reasons we’re all well aware of, that isn’t currently possible. There is undoubtedly also incompetence at various levels thrown in!

It does all seem rather cloak and dagger, and the secrecy is a little odd.

 

[Goldfish62]

AIUI it usually isn’t covered by Ts and Cs because it occurs so rarely, and is so bespoke, that it makes sense to reach fleet specific training agreements. You then need ASLEF members to instruct and deliver the training, ASLEF reps to agree the arrangements for them to be released etc. I suppose the TOC could deliver the classroom bits of the training just with managers but, at some point, you’ll need instructors to do the handling aspects.

Of course normally this kind of thing would be fed into annual negotiations between TOC and union and resolved accordingly but, for reasons we’re all well aware of, that isn’t currently possible. There is undoubtedly also incompetence at various levels thrown in!

It does all seem rather cloak and dagger, and the secrecy is a little odd.

Interesting insight - thanks for that!

 

[Ian Hardy]

The new diagram is not quite as described in post 8747:

5U09 0540 Wimbledon Depot to Waterloo arr 0626

2U09 0633 Waterloo to Windsor arr 0729

2U16 0753 Windsor to Waterloo arr 0853

2U19 0903 Waterloo to Windsor arr 0956

2U26 1023 Windsor to Waterloo arr 1119

2U29 1133 Waterloo to Windsor arr 1226

2U36 1253 Windsor to Waterloo arr 1349

5Y89 1358 Waterloo to Wimbledon depot arr 1448

701043 has operated it on Monday, Tuesday and today (17th)

You're the second person to suggest that diagram will be a 701, but there is nothing on RTT to confirm it.

Also, there is no suggestion of an ECS working to take that one out of circulation until the end of traffic, and others have suggested that the fisrt timetabled diagram will a peak hours only one.

However, there is one that runs two and a quarter round trips.
5U07 0540 Feltham depot to Twickenham arr 0619
2U07 0627 Twickenham to Windsor arr 0659
2U14 0726 Windsor to Waterloo arr 0824
2U17 0833 Waterloo to Windsor arr 0929
2U24 0953 Windsor to Waterloo arr 1049
5Y87 1057 Waterloo to Wimbledon depot (this ECS is the next departure from platform 20 after 2U24 arrives there)

2U27 is taken up by a train that arrives from a Hounslow Loop service (2R17)

Nothing to suggest that stock will be a 701 either (its a 2x450 today)

 

[03_179]

If you google Part Time Spotter blog then there allox are there

 

[3973EXL]

701008

Realtime Trains | 5Q14 1358 Worksop Down Yard to Derby Litchurch Lane | 17/04/2024

Real-time train running information for 5Q14 1358 departure from Worksop Down Yard to Derby Litchurch Lane on 17/04/2024. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

701016

Realtime Trains | 5Q74 0705 Eastleigh Trsmd to Marchwood Mod Gbrf | 17/04/2024

Real-time train running information for 5Q74 0705 departure from Eastleigh Trsmd to Marchwood Mod Gbrf on 17/04/2024. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[norbitonflyer]

The new diagram is not quite as described in post 8747:

No, it isn't at all like that. That was my guess as to how a Feltham-based diagram would work. But, as expected, the one being worked is from Wimbledon, as per post 8764

 

[Waterlemon]

So another three months and all we'll see is another soft launch type two additional return journeys to Windsor M-F?!

At this rate the units will be life-expired before training is complete!

Clearly the "12-18 months for full introduction" that SWR stated in January was way off targeted. Maybe substituting months with years would be more accurate.

Getting a bit angry over wibble?

 

[OneTrackMinded]

"Likely" means my guess

 

[Invincible]

No, it isn't at all like that. That was my guess as to how a Feltham-based diagram would work. But, as expected, the one being worked is from Wimbledon, as per post 8764

Thought they had spent a lot of money for the new Feltham depot to be the "flagship" home of the 701s?

https://www.southwesternrailway.com/other/news-and-media/news/2020/may/flagship-feltham-depot-begins-next-major-phase

 

[Goldfish62]

Getting a bit angry over wibble?

Not at all angry - just exasperated!

 

[lewisf]

There’s speculation that the training program needs to get through the unions, but what’s in it for them other than being difficult?

Surely the guards would rather work an air conditioned 701 this summer rather than a sweat box 455.

Drivers too. I know the 455s have cab air con but surely the modern system in the 701s is better.

 

[DMckduck97]

There’s speculation that the training program needs to get through the unions, but what’s in it for them other than being difficult?

Surely the guards would rather work an air conditioned 701 this summer rather than a sweat box 455.

Drivers too. I know the 455s have cab air con but surely the modern system in the 701s is better.

This have been covered so many times on this thread now, the RMT and SWR guards accepted a deal in 2021 over the operation and already have a training plan agreed.

The only reason more guards aren't being trained up is simply because there isn't enough trains running to keep up competencies...

ASLEF are in a national dispute so will make things as difficult as possible before push comes to shove.

Drivers too. I know the 455s have cab air con but surely the modern system in the 701s is better.

If you was to ask SWR drivers a question of would you rather carry on with the current method of operation or hurry the 701s in and with it the doors, what do you think they would choose?

 

[Goldfish62]

If you was to ask SWR drivers a question of would you rather carry on with the current method of operation or hurry the 701s in and with it the doors, what do you think they would choose?

And SWR lost all leverage when they introduced the uplift in pay immediately in return for ASLEF agreeing DCO as the standard method of operation, rather than phasing in when the 701s started being introduced.

There was always surely a risk that ASLEF would take the money and then do all it could to block DCO knowing that there's no way that SWR would take the money back.

 

[43066]

And SWR lost all leverage when they introduced the uplift in pay immediately in return for ASLEF agreeing DCO as the standard method of operation, rather than phasing in when the 701s started being introduced.

There was always surely a risk that ASLEF would take the money and then do all it could to block DCO knowing that there's no way that SWR would take the money back.

Albiet when that was agreed nobody could have predicted a. The massive delays to introduction (and Covid), and b. The national ASLEF dispute which has dragged on for so long.

Had none of those things happened there's no reason to think this would have been any different to other fleet introductions that have taken place recently.

 

[Meerkat]

If it was only the union holding things up I would have thought the company, the government, or local Tories would be banging a “commuters sweating in crowded trains whilst union keep new trains in sidings” drum quite loudly by now. Even if the company/DafT wanted to keep a lid on union relations surely it would have leaked to those who would want to exploit it??
Makes me guess that the trains aren’t ready anyway.

 

[Wolfie]

If it was only the union holding things up I would have thought the company, the government, or local Tories would be banging a “commuters sweating in crowded trains whilst union keep new trains in sidings” drum quite loudly by now. Even if the company/DafT wanted to keep a lid on union relations surely it would have leaked to those who would want to exploit it??
Makes me guess that the trains aren’t ready anyway.

I am inclined to agree. This government is hardly backwards in knocking trade unions...

 

[DMckduck97]

If it was only the union holding things up I would have thought the company, the government, or local Tories would be banging a “commuters sweating in crowded trains whilst union keep new trains in sidings” drum quite loudly by now. Even if the company/DafT wanted to keep a lid on union relations surely it would have leaked to those who would want to exploit it??
Makes me guess that the trains aren’t ready anyway.

Relations are pretty sour already, last thing you want is poking the bear especially with a lot of spring/summer events coming up.

Yes the DFT and gov don't care too much, but pressure will build when these large events people want to attend soon become unaccessible...

The 701 driver training plan WILL have to go through aslef one way or another, until they can come to an agreement no further training is going to take place unfortunately.

 

[Goldfish62]

Albiet when that was agreed nobody could have predicted a. The massive delays to introduction (and Covid), and b. The national ASLEF dispute which has dragged on for so long.

Had none of those things happened there's no reason to think this would have been any different to other fleet introductions that have taken place recently.

This is very true. When it was all agreed it was expected that the trains would be in service "shortly".

Yes the DFT and gov don't care too much.

Agreed! They really don't care anymore. Even though the last ASLEF strikes received more media attention than previously there was barely a peep from Government.

 

[SWT_USER]

Thought they had spent a lot of money for the new Feltham depot to be the "flagship" home of the 701s?

https://www.southwesternrailway.com/other/news-and-media/news/2020/may/flagship-feltham-depot-begins-next-major-phase

Feltham is just stabling IIRC (and maybe tanking?) but no heavy maintenance which will presumably be done at Wimbledon. With hindsight I wonder if Feltham was actually needed at all given how much rolling stock SWR has offloaded post pandemic.

Given the very limited mileage these current units are doing it would seem sensible to come up with a plan to stable them at Feltham - I can't imagine there is much need for heavy maintenance on the 701 fleet currently.

 

[pompeyfan]

This have been covered so many times on this thread now, the RMT and SWR guards accepted a deal in 2021 over the operation and already have a training plan agreed.

Not strictly true. SWR insisted that metro guards would have no involvement in despatch at all when the dispute ended, RMT have agreed to some degraded despatch during the soft launch, but if the grade are expected to fulfil degraded despatch on a permanent basis, as well as close the doors in the event of a stop short door release or to keep their key on when a starting signal is at red, they’re (rightly or wrongly) seeking to be compensated for that.

The trains aren’t particularly suitable for guard dispatch as there’s no safe refuge for a safe view of the platform / train interface in the event the train is crush loaded, and even then the saloon panels are diagonally opposite which presents issues when the train is busy.

Oddly the impression I got was that the RMT now want nothing to do with the doors on 701s, and if they are required to be involved, would require various changes or issues and scenarios ironed out. This is my own conclusion and is in no way official just me speculating and theorising, and should not be taken as union bashing etc.

 

[gabrielhj07]

Apart from 028, 037, 039 & 043, have any others carried passengers yet?