Class 701 'Aventra' trains for South Western Railway

[norbitonflyer]

and as you do each one, simply alter the 8car stop back 2car lengths.

I wish they would do that anyway. At places like Wimbledon and Earlsfield (up) and Raynes Park and Kingston (down) there are dangerous crushes as people have to negotiate the narrowest part of the platfrom to get between the entrance/exit and the nearest part of the train. (and only half of the train is under the canopy)

 

[LUYMun]

Shouldn't they have done that five years ago?

Not sure it would've been wise to put the cart before the horse back then, considering the 701s were running into technical issues.

 

[Mainsideman]

Internal job vacancies for '701 driver trainers' were published last week.

701 guard trainers has just gone up also as 18 month secondment.

 

[PG]

701 guard trainers has just gone up also as 18 month secondment.

Does that indicate the likely timescale for the 701s to fully enter service?

 

[norbitonflyer]

I still don't get why the 701 is being slagged off as useless when it is effectively a 345/710/720/730. In my humble opinion (and its just an opinion) the problem isn't the trains but the shambolic management of SWR.

SWR are still the only operator to have introduced a new class of train this year, and it's already April.
No 93, 555, 756, 805, or DLR B23 yet

 

[OneTrackMinded]

Internal job vacancies for '701 driver trainers' were published last week.

Finally some positive news

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Surely that only means additional screens showing same images, not additional cameras.

Not going to be much difference if viewing it from car 10 instead of car 9. The important part (regarding screens) is the part of the train that can't easily be seen (front and middle), not the bit nearest where guard is at that will be done visually, not by checking a screen.

Alternatively they could avoid having full and standing trains by making everything 10car, or upping frequency as per the 2017 franchise commitments (ie sort problem at source, rather than design a system to cope with undesirable option). Or simply have platform staff at busy times.

EDIT has now occurred to me that even cheaper to simply move the 8/9 car monitors to 10car position, and as you do each one, simply alter the 8car stop back 2car lengths. The 8car stops won't be needed soon (and few places where 450s will continue to work alongside could easily have solution for both)

SWR nor SWT before them has ever got to grips with introducing any form of DOO. Just give them give them to SE an operator that has safely run DOO for thirty years. SWR have the 30x458s to replace them and im sure a few 350's can have shoegear fitted to them to bolster the 450 fleet.

 

[OneTrackMinded]

safely run DOO

Beckenham: Train passengers pleaded with knifeman during attack

A teenager is arrested on suspicion of attempted murder after a stabbing on a train in London.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[adc82140]

Beckenham: Train passengers pleaded with knifeman during attack

A teenager is arrested on suspicion of attempted murder after a stabbing on a train in London.

www.bbc.co.uk

I wouldn't expect a guard, or any other member of rail staff to challenge a knifeman. So whether the train was DOO or not is neither here nor there.

 

[cvinall]

That’s caused by a murderer, not by DOO. Same happened on SWR in 2019.

Darren Pencille: Lee Pomeroy Guildford train stab attacker jailed for murder https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-48967618

 

[Towers]

The passengers of SWR are unlikely to want DOO, and nor will they get it. If & when the 701s do ever enter service they will have a rules competent guard on board just as those services do now; very good news.

guard has to key on at every station anyway and check the platform

There’s quite a difference between sticking a key on while you check for anybody requiring assistance, and suddenly being partly responsible for mitigating SPADs! I’d be very interested to understand whether that’s a serious proposal.

 

[Snow1964]

The passengers of SWR are unlikely to want DOO,

I think that would depend on how you phrase the question.

If it was do you want DOO and new air conditioned trains, or old trains with suburban guards that hide in back cab and never patrol the train, what do you think the answer will be.

 

[Towers]

I think that would depend on how you phrase the question.

If it was do you want DOO and new air conditioned trains, or old trains with suburban guards that hide in back cab and never patrol the train, what do you think the answer will be.

In the current climate, any vote for destaffing would be quite a surprise, I think.

Anyhow, we’re off topic here!

 

[Goldfish62]

Does that indicate the likely timescale for the 701s to fully enter service?

SWR has stated 12-18 months, so yes. Actually quite quick for such a large fleet.

 

[Lockwood]

Except it is a further 12-18 months, on top of the.... Ages... So far

 

[Snow1964]

SWR has stated 12-18 months, so yes. Actually quite quick for such a large fleet.

The original delivery schedule had a table of quantity by certain dates, it ran from October 2019 to all by early December 2020

So originally was going to be over 14 months, if that has now opened out to 18 months suggests SWR has become 25% less efficient at Training staff.

 

[OneTrackMinded]

The new estimate is probably also taking into account how long they think union talks will go on for, as well as adjustment to stations such as lighting, and ensuring all the trains will be ready

 

[sp503]

One of the problems I see is that the three parties (ASLEF, SWR and DfT) do not have much incentive to speed up the negotiations. SWR can blame this delay on ASLEF and as an operational contractor rather than franchisee the ultimate (financial) burden is on DfT, not SWR. DfT is sitting at arms length from all this chaos and the general public will likely blame SWR and the unions rather than themselves. ASLEF of course, is accountable to their members rather than the public.

I don’t know but what if some taxpayer brings them to court accusing all three parties for wasting taxpayers’ money by not sorting this out in a reasonable timeframe. This might force all parties to make sure they are making progress (and they are the kind of progress that they can file to court for cross examination, not merely paying lip service) this might be able to force them down to earth and make some decisions, one way or the other.

 

[Big Jumby 74]

Actually quite quick for such a large fleet.

I would concur, and you have touched on the point in question (fleet size). If there is any similar measure to judge by, going back to 458/5 introduction (as 5 car units) the phased plan to get them back in to traffic was specifically designed around two units (ie 10 cars) every two weeks. They had to hit the road in pairs as they were replacing 2 x 4 car on a diagram basis, and the person concerned (with the planned introduction) had no intension of any ('new') single 5 cars replacing existing 8 cars in the peaks (plan wise). In reality what happened, happened, I can not comment, but 'the plan' was designed to ensure the passengers only ever encountered an increase in cars on the Windsor side services. The fortnightly introduction concept continued with the plan for the 707's, their initial roll out replicating that of the 458/5's which in turn moved to other routes as the cascade progressed.

 

[norbitonflyer]

I don’t know but what if some taxpayer brings them to court accusing all three parties for wasting taxpayers’ money by not sorting this out in a reasonable timeframe.

Can you do that?

The Public Accounts Comittee may have locus, but I wan't aware that wasting taxpayer's money is actionable in a court of law by a member of the public?

 

[Wokingham]

Can you do that?

The Public Accounts Comittee may have locus, but I wan't aware that wasting taxpayer's money is actionable in a court of law by a member of the public?

They would be very busy, very interesting have started to Google.

 

[adc82140]

I don't think it'd work, sadly. If precedent were set, it would open the floodgates: local councils wasting money on half baked pot hole repairs, the NHS in general squandering money. The list goes on.

 

[Invincible]

One of the problems I see is that the three parties (ASLEF, SWR and DfT) do not have much incentive to speed up the negotiations. SWR can blame this delay on ASLEF and as an operational contractor rather than franchisee the ultimate (financial) burden is on DfT, not SWR. DfT is sitting at arms length from all this chaos and the general public will likely blame SWR and the unions rather than themselves. ASLEF of course, is accountable to their members rather than the public.

I don’t know but what if some taxpayer brings them to court accusing all three parties for wasting taxpayers’ money by not sorting this out in a reasonable timeframe. This might force all parties to make sure they are making progress (and they are the kind of progress that they can file to court for cross examination, not merely paying lip service) this might be able to force them down to earth and make some decisions, one way or the other.

But if Rock rail as a ROSCO is paying Alstom for the trains as a long term investment, then the leases will not start until the 701 trains go in service, (currently 5?), so there is no large charge on the DfT or taxpayer if the DfT has a fixed operating contract with SWR (until GBR is setup to replace the DfT functions, if GBR ltd still goes ahead).
Presume some of the 707 leases have finished so the DfT is not paying any extra for the train leases on the SWR lines
Providing new 701 leases with Rock rail will sometime start to replace 455s, then Rock rail will make a good profit from the new 701s?.
(The situation with the manufacturers, Rosco leasing companies, DfT, the emerging GBR ltd and train operating companies can get confusing, so any more clarification is welcome)

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

SWR are still the only operator to have introduced a new class of train this year, and it's already April.
No 93, 555, 756, 805, or DLR B23 yet

Trains due in 2019... they absolutely do not get praise for beating TW Metro/Avanti/LNER in becoming the first for new trains in 2024. When said trains are five years late, it takes away a lot of the shine...

 

[Clarence Yard]

I don’t know but what if some taxpayer brings them to court accusing all three parties for wasting taxpayers’ money by not sorting this out in a reasonable timeframe. This might force all parties to make sure they are making progress (and they are the kind of progress that they can file to court for cross examination, not merely paying lip service) this might be able to force them down to earth and make some decisions, one way or the other.

Wasting public money isn’t a Criminal Offence - it is not something that can be tried in Court.

Parliament is the ultimate body in charge of public finances.

 

[ScottGallagher]

Not that I agree with it but is it safe to say BR will have had the South Western suburban DOO long ago.

 

[Snow1964]

But if Rock rail as a ROSCO is paying Alstom for the trains as a long term investment, then the leases will not start until the 701 trains go in service, (currently 5?), so there is no large charge on the DfT or taxpayer if the DfT has a fixed operating contract with SWR (until GBR is setup to replace the DfT functions, if GBR ltd still goes ahead).
Presume some of the 707 leases have finished so the DfT is not paying any extra for the train leases on the SWR lines
Providing new 701 leases with Rock rail will sometime start to replace 455s, then Rock rail will make a good profit from the new 701s?.
(The situation with the manufacturers, Rosco leasing companies, DfT, the emerging GBR ltd and train operating companies can get confusing, so any more clarification is welcome)

Bombardier (now Alstom) paid following liquidated damages to Rock Rail South Western plc (per their published accounts)

Year to 31 Dec 2020 £ 49,678,000
Year to 31 Dec 2021 £ 61,778,000
Year to 31 Dec 2022 £ 67,723,000
Year to 31 Dec 2023 (accounts not yet published)

So probably, by now paid £250-300m as damages /compensation for late delivery / non performance etc. Ultimately the Alstom money is probably covering Rock Rails funders interest charge or SWRs continued lease of 455s which should have stopped 3-4 years ago.

I assume SWR pay Rock Rail for accepted units (now about 75 of 90 units) but get compensation if they don't work, but don't get compensation if it is their (or their staff) choice not to use them.

 

[OneTrackMinded]

So assuming they are still paying, there is one party which would want the trains in service ASAP, Alstom

 

[43066]

Trains due in 2019... they absolutely do not get praise for beating TW Metro/Avanti/LNER in becoming the first for new trains in 2024. When said trains are five years late, it takes away a lot of the shine...

Amazing (but not in a good way) to think that, had they arrived on time, they’d have been around about as long as the newer members of the 700 fleet, the last of which entered service during 2019.

So assuming they are still paying, there is one party which would want the trains in service ASAP, Alstom

And the tax payer, of course.

 

[Elorith]

EDIT has now occurred to me that even cheaper to simply move the 8/9 car monitors to 10car position, and as you do each one, simply alter the 8car stop back 2car lengths. The 8car stops won't be needed soon (and few places where 450s will continue to work alongside could easily have solution for both)

There are numerous locations where the CCTV positions require the Guard to step back and check coaches not covered by the cameras in addition to scanning the monitors in order to check the full length of the train

Also if you want the guard to walk through the train on services that stop every 2 minutes and check the full length of the platform at every station, there will need to be many many more CCTV positions installed on curved platforms