Class 701 'Aventra' trains for South Western Railway

[OneTrackMinded]

Class 701 not entering service, class 442 being partly refurbished then scrapped, class 458 refurbished with an unknown future.
The common denominator is SWR management

Not really. The 701 delay has been mostly Alstom's fault for delivering a train with lots of faults. All the rest is the DfT, the DfT controls everything now

 

[Goldfish62]

Class 701 not entering service, class 442 being partly refurbished then scrapped, class 458 refurbished with an unknown future.
The common denominator is SWR management

And the totally botched £26m investment in the Island line, resulting in its worst ever service, the latest installment in this ongoing farce being problems with the 484 wheelsets.

Not really. The 701 delay has been mostly Alstom's fault for delivering a train with lots of faults. All the rest is the DfT, the DfT controls everything now

The delays to the start of training on the 701s resulting in a further interminable delay to service entry is firmly SWR's fault. The fact that no one is able to get any explanation out of the company speaks volumes.

Those in the know said retractioning the 442s and expecting them to keep to time on the Portsmouth Direct was unrealistic. No doubt a hidden factor in their demise when this became obvious.

Regular users of SWR haven't had an uninterrupted normal service since late 2017. No wonder passengers are giving up and walking away.

Whether directly at fault or not, everything that SWR touches turns to the brown stuff. Truly the reverse Midas touch.

 

[OneTrackMinded]

And the totally botched £26m investment in the Island line, resulting in its worst ever service, the latest installment in this ongoing farce being problems with the 484 wheelsets.


The delays to the start of training on the 701s resulting in a further interminable delay to service entry is firmly SWR's fault. The fact that no one is able to get any explanation out of the company speaks volumes.

Those in the know said retractioning the 442s and expecting them to keep to time on the Portsmouth Direct was unrealistic. No doubt a hidden factor in their demise when this became obvious.

Regular users of SWR haven't had an uninterrupted normal service since late 2017. No wonder passengers are giving up and walking away.

Whether directly at fault or not, everything that SWR touches turns to the brown stuff. Truly the reverse Midas touch.

After COVID the TOC holds little control. The DfT have to sign off on basically everything operationally. They also as an extension make the call on fleet. Before COVID, the TOC held a lot more control. In other words, you can blame it on SWR before COVID, but anything after it's the DfT. The franchise agreement doesn't even exist anymore because franchises are dead

 

[Goldfish62]

After COVID the TOC holds little control. The DfT have to sign off on basically everything operationally. They also as an extension make the call on fleet. Before COVID, the TOC held a lot more control. In other words, you can blame it on SWR before COVID, but anything after it's the DfT. The franchise agreement doesn't even exist anymore because franchises are dead

I know full well that franchises were replaced by contracts and that the DfT basically runs the railways.

In the list I gave above the blame is predominantly with SWR, not the DfT. It's almost as if the DfT is standing back and allowing SWR to make a complete mess of things as an experiment to see what happens when a busy commuter TOC is run down to its bare bones.

 

[Stephen42]

The delays to the start of training on the 701s resulting in a further interminable delay to service entry is firmly SWR's fault. The fact that no one is able to get any explanation out of the company speaks volumes.

Does it really say anything? What would SWR gain from giving a full detailed explanation of reasons for delay to the railway press. It might satisfy a few people on here and improve their image slightly of passengers who are waiting for the trains to come into service. However, SWR retaining the contact or making profit is based on how the government views how well they are doing. I would be amazed if the SWR updates to the government didn't have full details of the challenges and how they are responding to them plus what's needed from the government to get them into service. You could potentially FOI them from the DfT but expect heavy redactions or outright refusal due to commercial sensitivity.

Slagging off the government or suppliers makes those relationships more awkward where they still rely on them to get the trains into service and the contract extended. If the reasons are partially related to staff/union demands for extra money to do the training/longer training with more overtime available as a result saying that to the railway press will just damage industrial relations even further which already aren't in a good place and agreement is needed to get the trains into service.

 

[Goldfish62]

Does it really say anything? What would SWR gain from giving a full detailed explanation of reasons for delay to the railway press. It might satisfy a few people on here and improve their image slightly of passengers who are waiting for the trains to come into service. However, SWR retaining the contact or making profit is based on how the government views how well they are doing. I would be amazed if the SWR updates to the government didn't have full details of the challenges and how they are responding to them plus what's needed from the government to get them into service. You could potentially FOI them from the DfT but expect heavy redactions or outright refusal due to commercial sensitivity.

Slagging off the government or suppliers makes those relationships more awkward where they still rely on them to get the trains into service and the contract extended. If the reasons are partially related to staff/union demands for extra money to do the training/longer training with more overtime available as a result saying that to the railway press will just damage industrial relations even further which already aren't in a good place and agreement is needed to get the trains into service.

Given that SWR have spent the last few years pointing the finger at Alstom and also highlighting union demands for changes to the cab layout more than demonstrates that they're happy to allocate blame where it involves others. The fact that they're now keeping tight-lipped suggests the blame for continued delays lies with SWR. Surely you must think it's a bit strange when a respected magazine like Modern Railways can't begin to get to the bottom of it.

In January at the press launch they stated that training would be starting immediately and that full roll-out would take 12-18 months from then. They've clearly already failed to achieve that target.

 

[D365]

Surely you must think it's a bit strange when a respected magazine like Modern Railways can't begin to get to the bottom of it.

This is what my cryptic comments are alluding to. Nobody has a single answer - laying the blame [mostly] at Alstom is incorrect.

 

[Peter Sarf]

This is what my cryptic comments are alluding to. Nobody has a single answer - laying the blame [mostly] at Alstom is incorrect.

I think the best way to look at it is that there is likely no one single simple reason for the problems with the 701s. That is of course not what the media subscribe to - preferring a simple single point of blame and that tends to appeal to the audience as well.

I throw this in as a suggestion.
I can imagine Bombardier/Alstom concentrating on Aventras other than the SWR 701s once it became clear that the cabs were becoming smaller than normal and then the subsequent changes to cope with that smaller size and union reluctance thereof. Greater Anglia went all prudent and plumped for one single unit size abandoning their double length 720s in favour of pairs of shorter 720s. GA changed their order in a way that was easy to fulfil - not requiring any more design work. Granted the original GA order was predominantly 5-car 720s anyway. Whereas SWR was predominantly 10car 701s but I think aspirational inflexibility has left some hangovers for the SWR 701s.

Meanwhile we await some meaningful progress.

 

[Goldfish62]

I think the best way to look at it is that there is likely no one single simple reason for the problems with the 701s. It is of course what the media subscribe to - a simple single point of blame and that tends to appeal to the audience.

I throw this in as a suggestion.
I can imagine Bombardier/Alstom concentrating on Aventras other than the SWR 701s once it became clear that the cabs were becoming smaller than normal and then the subsequent changes to cope with that smaller size and union reluctance thereof. Greater Anglia went all prudent and plumped for one single unit size abandoning their double length 720s in favour of pairs of shorter 720s. Granted the original GA order was predominantly 5-car 720s anyway. Whereas SWR was predominantly 10car 701s but I think aspirational flexibility has left some hangovers.

I dont think anyone is suggesting that Alstom weren't at fault with the cab design, but we're way, way past that. The current issue is the delay to training, for which SWR are keeping rather tight-lipped. It's already resulting in a 6+ month delay over what was expected as recently as January, and I wouldn't be surprised if it doesn't start at all this year. We've had a multitude of false dawns before.

 

[Peter Sarf]

I dont think anyone is suggesting that Alstom weren't at fault with the cab design, but we're way, way past that. The current issue is the delay to training, for which SWR are keeping rather tight-lipped. It's already resulting in a 6+ month delay over what was expected as recently as January, and I wouldn't be surprised if it doesn't start at all this year. We've had a multitude of false dawns before.

I tend to think, once things have got so protracted in the past, that there is little enthusiasm now to forge ahead. There will possibly also be TOC/Union hangovers to get past currently.

 

[Goldfish62]

I tend to think, once things have got so protracted in the past, that there is little enthusiasm now to forge ahead. There will possibly also be TOC/Union hangovers to get past currently.

I agree. It feels as if things are stuck in a rut. I don't think things will really start progressing until there's a clean sweep and the whole senior management team at SWR is replaced, which will hopefully happen next March if Labour get in.

 

[cactustwirly]

I agree. It feels as if things are stuck in a rut. I don't think things will really start progressing until there's a clean sweep and the whole senior management team at SWR is replaced, which will hopefully happen next March if Labour get in.

It's got nothing to do with the SWR management if the trains aren't fit to enter service.
A new management team doesn't have a magic wand...

 

[Goldfish62]

It's got nothing to do with the SWR management if the trains aren't fit to enter service.
A new management team doesn't have a magic wand...

Who says the trains aren't fit to enter service? There's been one running in service daily for the past three months! I've been a passenger on them!

How many times does it have to be repeated on this thread that no one is able to provide a satisfactory explanation as to why training has not started?

Without any credible explanation forthcoming for the delay this is on SWR. It's down to them. Time for a clean sweep and a fresh start. I can't wait to get shot of SWR.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Who says the trains aren't fit to enter service? There's been one running in service daily for the past three months! I've been a passenger on them!

How many times does it have to be repeated on this thread that no one is able to provide a satisfactory explanation as to why training has not started?

Without any credible explanation forthcoming for the delay this is on SWR. It's down to them. Time for a clean sweep and a fresh start. I can't wait to get shot of SWR.

My bold. Trouble is it will be same people but different company ("TOC") name. OK at the very top the emphasis/priorities might change but the implementation will likely be done by those who even go back before SWT. Of course the very top will have changed to the dead hand of the DfT and Government policy.

 

[Snow1964]

Who says the trains aren't fit to enter service? There's been one running in service daily for the past three months! I've been a passenger on them!

How many times does it have to be repeated on this thread that no one is able to provide a satisfactory explanation as to why training has not started?

Without any credible explanation forthcoming for the delay this is on SWR. It's down to them. Time for a clean sweep and a fresh start. I can't wait to get shot of SWR.

I too don't understand how every other Operator of Aventra based trains got them into service (even if months late), but SWR cannot get more than a part time single unit running.

As for getting shot of SWR, I am with you on that. If you look at ORR passenger numbers, there was a growing trend in the 7 years to 2017 under SWT. Then under the 7 years of SWR the numbers reveal shambols. Let us hope the DfT don't rush through a renewal contract to same bunch of incompetents.

 

[OneTrackMinded]

Then under the 7 years of SWR the numbers reveal shambols.

COVID. SWR has been the worst to recover since a lot of their commuters now work from home as the area they serve "apparently is very high income"

 

[hwl]

COVID. SWR has been the worst to recover since a lot of their commuters now work from home as the area they serve "apparently is very high income"

SWR, Chiltern and the outer reaches of C2C were already seeing a reasonable bit of WFH pre-Covid as well as an exit of some finance jobs from the UK due to Brexit

 

[Stephen42]

Given that SWR have spent the last few years pointing the finger at Alstom and also highlighting union demands for changes to the cab layout more than demonstrates that they're happy to allocate blame where it involves others. The fact that they're now keeping tight-lipped suggests the blame for continued delays lies with SWR. Surely you must think it's a bit strange when a respected magazine like Modern Railways can't begin to get to the bottom of it.

In January at the press launch they stated that training would be starting immediately and that full roll-out would take 12-18 months from then. They've clearly already failed to achieve that target.

I'm not saying it never happens, more that these situations are complex and typically much thought goes into what is released to press. Even when they were blaming Alstom, it's highly likely someone from SWR was carefully managing the relationship giving advance notice of the release and showing understanding of what Alstom were doing to rectify the situation but it's out of their hands with their managers feel they need to publicise etc. It's also easier when things have already been agreed and the other party is happy for it to be known - the cab layout changes was a victory for ASLEF and they don't mind being seen to delay the rollout.

Until recently according to posts on here the training programme wasn't agreed. Putting why it wasn't agreed into the press would make negotiations more difficult. With the unions it then becomes a bigger issue that neither side wants to be seen to cave on (the government for SWR). For the government, SWR is scored by the DfT on how well they are doing as an operator, so going to press saying that the government is the problem isn't a wise move.

None of the press releases I've seen mention training starting immediately after launch, just that they would be available for in service training. SWR aren't perfect by any means and the 12-18 months timeframe seems unrealistic, unless they meant after first full diagram introduction. If training does start in the next few months that's a good indicator of a full rollout beginning some point later this year.

 

[OneTrackMinded]

SWR, Chiltern and the outer reaches of C2C were already seeing a reasonable bit of WFH pre-Covid as well as an exit of some finance jobs from the UK due to Brexit

It's fair to guess then that the 701s aren't anywhere near the top of the DfT's priority list. I'm sure a few people at the company think it was a misfire to order loads of these high capacity trains when they might be underutilised for quite some time

 

[DelW]

COVID. SWR has been the worst to recover since a lot of their commuters now work from home as the area they serve "apparently is very high income"

SWR was already failing before Covid, although that's provided them with a convenient excuse for their lousy performance and inconvenient timetables.

The promises SWR made in 2017 - a revised and restructured timetable, enhanced services, refurbished and reliveried trains - were already abandoned or running way behind schedule by early 2020.

It's also arguable how much of the loss of high value season tickets is driven by the Desiro refurb having wrecked first class on major routes. The original spacious and premium-feeling mid-coach saloons were scrapped and replaced by claustrophobic little cubby holes behind cabs, with seating barely any different from standard class. With catering also being scrapped, why would anyone choose to pay top prices to travel on such a poor service as SWR offers?

The halving of services on e.g. the Epsom line must also be driving commuters away. There are regular reports of trains so full at Worcester Park that people are left behind. SWR also scrapped the 456s, meaning 8 coach instead of 10 coach trains on these routes. How are those changes going to help restore traffic levels?

The 701 fiasco is just one among SWR's long litany of failures.

 

[OneTrackMinded]

The 701 fiasco is just one among SWR's long litany of failures.

Along with that there were many planned features of the 701 which will never happen because of the poor management. They were ordered all around the idea of shorter dwell times, quicker journey times, etc etc, but most of things that were going to make that happen like ABDO and the enhanced timetable have both been scrapped. The ABDO buttons right in the centre of the cab will remain underutilised for whoever knows long, if ever used

 

[MotCO]

As for getting shot of SWR, I am with you on that.

Did many managers transfer from SWT to SWR, if so, why did the service deteriorate? Does SWR operate with fewer manager than SWT as part of their bid, and now the chickens are coming home to roost?

 

[hwl]

SWR was already failing before Covid, although that's provided them with a convenient excuse for their lousy performance and inconvenient timetables.

The promises SWR made in 2017 - a revised and restructured timetable, enhanced services, refurbished and reliveried trains - were already abandoned or running way behind schedule by early 2020.

It's also arguable how much of the loss of high value season tickets is driven by the Desiro refurb having wrecked first class on major routes. The original spacious and premium-feeling mid-coach saloons were scrapped and replaced by claustrophobic little cubby holes behind cabs, with seating barely any different from standard class. With catering also being scrapped, why would anyone choose to pay top prices to travel on such a poor service as SWR offers?

The halving of services on e.g. the Epsom line must also be driving commuters away. There are regular reports of trains so full at Worcester Park that people are left behind. SWR also scrapped the 456s, meaning 8 coach instead of 10 coach trains on these routes. How are those changes going to help restore traffic levels?

The 701 fiasco is just one among SWR's long litany of failures.

There is a chicken/egg cycle cycle going on on a fair number of routes:
1) Users will return if a better service is provided
2) DfT won't agree to service improvement unless user numbers improve first
Result stalemate and minimal change.

For a number of London area commuter TOCS the recovery in user numbers has been better on closer into London.

 

[norbitonflyer]

My bold. Trouble is it will be same people but different company ("TOC") name. OK at the very top the emphasis/priorities might change but the implementation will likely be done by those who even go back before SWT. Of course the very top will have changed to the dead hand of the DfT and Government policy.

Unless TfL take them over. It nearly happened about ten years ago. The then mayor, one Boris Johnson, was keen but Grayling (who was Minister for Transport as well as MP for Epsom & Ewell (SWT territory, but not in Greater London) was not keen for his constituents' commuting to be at the mercy of a possible future Labour mayor - this despite leaders of several Conservative councils within Greater London having been in favour of such a move.

Chris Grayling urged to resign over leaked rail letter

The Transport Secretary is urged to resign after a leaked letter shows he opposed rail devolution to keep it "out of the clutches" of Labour.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[OneTrackMinded]

Unless TfL take them over. It nearly happened about ten years ago. The then mayor, one Boris Johnson, was keen but Grayling (who was Minister for Transport as well as MP for Epsom & Ewell (SWT territory, but not in Greater London) was not keen for his constituents' commuting to be at the mercy of a possible future Labour mayor - this despite leaders of several Conservative councils within Greater London having been in favour of such a move.

Chris Grayling urged to resign over leaked rail letter

The Transport Secretary is urged to resign after a leaked letter shows he opposed rail devolution to keep it "out of the clutches" of Labour.

www.bbc.co.uk

Sadiq has proposed taking over a few lines with TfL if Labour win the next general election, although it's only portions of GN and SE, no mention of SWR at all

Sadiq Khan: TfL would do a better job of running London commuter trains

Bid to seize control of Southeastern metro services and Great Northern trains

www.standard.co.uk

 

[Big Jumby 74]

Did many managers transfer from SWT to SWR

Many did AFAIR, but equally all directors were changed (as was expected under those circumstances) but also many Managers, and experienced staff also departed. It wasn't just the better publicised departure of experienced Controllers that had an effect on events post 2017.

Unless TfL take them over. It nearly happened about ten years ago.

In any such scenario the staff doing the hard work may remain the same, but instructions from 'on high' can change, and that is what drives service decisions. As for TfL proposals to take over (parts) of the main suburban (SW) network (more than a decade ago I can say, having been asked to undertake a minor investigative roll in that regard). TfL wanted to cherry pick certain main sub routes to operate themselves, not the entire main sub network (lets be clear about that). Those routes concerned had therefore to be re-planned to be self contained (within that specific group of routes that Tfl 'wanted') in order that they would not interfere with the remaining SWT suburban routes.
These questions were being asked long before Waterloo was rebuilt (2017), and so the Main suburban had to operate within (off peak) four platforms, and peak time (perhaps) six platforms (to take an average) due to to peak time additional's, usually meaning the enhanced peak time service down through Worcester Park/Epsom. The result of a re-planning exercise showed that without any doubt, a splitting of operators/stock/services on the main sub side at Waterloo, would have needed (in the off peak alone) six to seven platforms, depending on timings (and that was before any connectional considerations at outer stations had been considered), as opposed to four platforms in the unified BR/SWT optimum plan as had existed for years with the track plan available.

Since then the track plan outside plats 1-4 has been modified, but if anyone thinks those revisions will allow an enhanced/separated service that is greater in any tangible way in train movements than that which existed pre 2017 (without causing severe interference with the SWML main line arrivals/departures), then dream on!

Deleted.

 

[Clarence Yard]

Did many managers transfer from SWT to SWR, if so, why did the service deteriorate? Does SWR operate with fewer manager than SWT as part of their bid, and now the chickens are coming home to roost?

Several senior managers didn’t transfer but that isn’t the real problem.

The problems started when the DfT train service specification, which was agreed at NR HQ level, couldn’t be implemented because the NR route said (quite rightly) it was unworkable. If COVID hadn’t have happened, there would have been the mother of all franchise contract change events, which would have cost the DfT dearly because FG are very good at that type of thing.

I’m not going to comment on the 701 debacle as there are legal issues involved here and it would be instantly career ending to do so. Sufficient to say that the DfT have been aware and are very much involved in what SWR has done or not done.

The DfT are the ones who sign off all timetable alterations, staff recruitment and training plans. They are effectively deciding what can be done and when. Costs and not cancelling trains to release staff are very much in their mind when they look at this.

If Labour get in, the current procurement exercise for a new DA (to the present incumbants) for SWR will probably be terminated and it will move to DOHL. That will free up more funds for SWR (like it did for TPE) as, looking at it from a very cynical DfT view, DOHL is a much cheaper form of DfT control than doing it via a TOC owning group.

 

[OneTrackMinded]

there are legal issues involved

I am not at all surprised

 

[Big Jumby 74]

Costs and not cancelling trains to release staff

And this was something at the top of the thinking for the plans when same for training/re-training for 458/5, 456 & 707 were worked up (and in place and on the shelf I would add) before the first 458/5 arrived back on patch.

 

[norbitonflyer]

Sadiq has proposed taking over a few lines with TfL if Labour win the next general election, although it's only portions of GN and SE, no mention of SWR at all

Sadiq Khan: TfL would do a better job of running London commuter trains

Bid to seize control of Southeastern metro services and Great Northern trains

www.standard.co.uk

Notable that only one London borough has no rail-based TfL services at all. Abbey Wood just squeezes into Bexley, and Sutton has a couple of tram stops, but Kingston has SWR and nothing else.