Class 707 to Southeastern Dates

[Peregrine 4903]

Its no uncommon to stop at a station and foul a junction for a Min. Look at Lewes, if you run an 8 car or over on the East Coastway to Brighton, you foul the junction but it's only for a station stop..

Brixton Junction is rather more congested than Lewes Junction.

 

[Fincra5]

Brixton Junction is rather more congested than Lewes Junction.

Correct.. however that doesn't mean it can't be timed to block for a minute for a station stop.

 

[Wolfie]

There is some logic to that but also a risk that drivers get trained and the trains don't come as quickly as expected and that training needs refreshing. The issue though is providing a reliable railway now that doesn't suffer capacity constraints that put people off travelling so my view remains that maintaining status quo is remains paramount over everything else. Rightly or wrongly SWR have clearly allowed the 458's to deteriorate and they now risk a shortage of serviceable stock for no real gain elsewhere. The 360's needed to be moved to EMT but GA bought in stood down units from elsewhere so no deficit was created nor a loss of capacity on GE services.

As adc81240 says the 442's should be placed into traffic to release 450's but this really only stems the deteriorating availability of 458's given whats being reported by others.

Perhaps some of the 350/2s can be used on DC form given the number of Desiros with SWR.

 

[Fincra5]

Perhaps some of the 350/2s can be used on DC form given the number of Desiros with SWR.

Lot of faff and time and expense to add the required equipment for a short period of time. Pluasble if say the 350/2 ended up being used by, Southern, for example afterwards (313 replacements etc)...

 

[pompeyfan]

Lot of faff and time and expense to add the required equipment for a short period of time. Pluasble if say the 350/2 ended up being used by, Southern, for example afterwards (313 replacements etc)...

Or SWR keep the /2s after an extensive refit and bin the pigs.

 

[adc82140]

The 350/2s aren't available until the 730s arrive. Surely by then the 701s will be in service with SWR.

 

[Goldfish62]

The 350/2s aren't available until the 730s arrive. Surely by then the 701s will be in service with SWR.

And given that the 730s are also Aventras they will undoubtedly be heavily delayed due to software issues.

 

[Mikey C]

It still hasn't been exactly explained what the plan is concerning the transfer of 707s to Southeastern

Are they additional trains, are they partially replacing existing trains (e.g. the non compliant 466s) etc. Indeed where are they being stored?

 

[Goldfish62]

It still hasn't been exactly explained what the plan is concerning the transfer of 707s to Southeastern

Are they additional trains, are they partially replacing existing trains (e.g. the non compliant 466s) etc. Indeed where are they being stored?

I forget which mag it was in recently but it was suggested that they're to start Networker replacement, which of course was due with the still-born new franchise. It's suggested they will be used on Tunbridge Wells stoppers and some North Kent services.

 

[Mikey C]

I forget which mag it was in recently but it was suggested that they're to start Networker replacement, which of course was due with the still-born new franchise. It's suggested they will be used on Tunbridge Wells stoppers and some North Kent services.

There are 147 4 car 465s and and 43 2 car 466s.

30 5 car 707s would make very little impact into replacing the Networkers. What Southeastern eventually need is a consistent fleet of suburban EMUs not a hotchpot of unrelated Networkers, 376s and 707s!

 

[Wolfie]

Or SWR keep the /2s after an extensive refit and bin the pigs.

That would make sense.

 

[Goldfish62]

There are 147 4 car 465s and and 43 2 car 466s.

30 5 car 707s would make very little impact into replacing the Networkers. What Southeastern eventually need is a consistent fleet of suburban EMUs not a hotchpot of unrelated Networkers, 376s and 707s!

That's why the article said *to start* replacing Networkers.

Surely based on your argument SER shouldn't be taking the 707s at all, because they'll always be non-standard.

 

[brad465]

I forget which mag it was in recently but it was suggested that they're to start Networker replacement, which of course was due with the still-born new franchise. It's suggested they will be used on Tunbridge Wells stoppers and some North Kent services.

They'll need toilets fitted first for the Tunbridge Wells lot, which either won't happen at all, won't happen until a long-term franchise plan is sorted out, or will happen from the outset but will still take a while to do.

 

[Roast Veg]

They'll need toilets fitted first for the Tunbridge Wells lot, which either won't happen at all, won't happen until a long-term franchise plan is sorted out, or will happen from the outset but will still take a while to do.

Indeed, the 456/9s were fitted specifically for this purpose I believe. The 707s are the right length but the wrong layout for this service.

I don't think the size of the 376 fleet is much of an issue, and I don't see the similarly sized 707 fleet being one either.

 

[ComUtoR]

That's why the article said *to start* replacing Networkers.

Surely based on your argument SER shouldn't be taking the 707s at all, because they'll always be non-standard.

The original plan was a complete replacement of the networker fleet. Due to the franchise being kicked into touch numerous times it never happened. SE has/had capacity issues and additional trains are vital to the future of... well since covid its anybodys guess now.

 

[43096]

Indeed, the 456/9s were fitted specifically for this purpose I believe. The 707s are the right length but the wrong layout for this service.

All the 465s and 466s had toilets from new. The 465/9s received a first class area when converted.

 

[Mikey C]

The original plan was a complete replacement of the networker fleet. Due to the franchise being kicked into touch numerous times it never happened. SE has/had capacity issues and additional trains are vital to the future of... well since covid its anybodys guess now.

Which was basically my original question

Are these additional trains for Southeastern, additional trains (less a few non compliant 466s) or replacement trains, and has that changed since Covid?

And there are added complications that the Networkers have toilets, but the 376s and 707s don't, and that some stations can take 12 car trains, and others only 10.

 

[Goldfish62]

Which was basically my original question

Are these additional trains for Southeastern, additional trains (less a few non compliant 466s) or replacement trains, and has that changed since Covid?

And there are added complications that the Networkers have toilets, but the 376s and 707s don't, and that some stations can take 12 car trains, and others only 10.

I doubt if even SER or DfT know the answer to that given Covid and the seeming inevitability of future service cuts which will render some rolling stock surplus.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

That would make sense.

Would be a lovely idea. None of this battery nonsense...

 

[Timmyd]

Correct.. however that doesn't mean it can't be timed to block for a minute for a station stop.

Most if not all stations on the suburban route from Victoria are 8 car only. Herne Hill would make this a non-starter - 10 car trains on SE would bring Thameslink to a standstill by fouling the junctions at either end

 

[ScotGG]

I doubt if even SER or DfT know the answer to that given Covid and the seeming inevitability of future service cuts which will render some rolling stock surplus.

SE must have had some clue when pitching for the transfer?

It does seem extremely odd no one knows what they were/are supposed to do especially as there appears to be no where to actually store them. Are 376s going somewhere else? They couldn't just replace/scrap 466s and use 707s to free up more 465 for 12-car running as Charing Cross Platform 1-4 and Woolwich Dockyard are still 10-car limit. Perhaps on Sidcup lines but that makes diagramming a headache?

Maybe some 465s were going elsewhere as a trial or conversion to run alongside 166s (wasn't there rumours about this?)

All a mystery.

 

[ComUtoR]

It does seem extremely odd no one knows what they were/are supposed to do especially as there appears to be no where to actually store them.

There is always a plan. It just might not be public yet. I'm sure it will appear in some rail magazine as some point.

 

[ScotGG]

Of course but things usually leak - or if good PR (as this is on the surface) it is highlighted by the DfT and franchise stating x amount of new seats etc. The silence here is unusual.

 

[30907]

Correct.. however that doesn't mean it can't be timed to block for a minute for a station stop.

Blocking two lines at Brixton every 15 minutes is significantly more disruptive than occasionally fouling one line at Lewes (I am assuming that Coastway East trains are still normally 3 or 4 cars?).

 

[Mikey C]

SE must have had some clue when pitching for the transfer?

It does seem extremely odd no one knows what they were/are supposed to do especially as there appears to be no where to actually store them. Are 376s going somewhere else? They couldn't just replace/scrap 466s and use 707s to free up more 465 for 12-car running as Charing Cross Platform 1-4 and Woolwich Dockyard are still 10-car limit. Perhaps on Sidcup lines but that makes diagramming a headache?

Maybe some 465s were going elsewhere as a trial or conversion to run alongside 166s (wasn't there rumours about this?)

All a mystery.

Exactly. Operators don't just lease some additional trains and then decide if they want to stop operating some older ones or not at a later date. Especially as I imagine the 707s are more expensive than the existing stock

 

[brad465]

SE must have had some clue when pitching for the transfer?

It does seem extremely odd no one knows what they were/are supposed to do especially as there appears to be no where to actually store them. Are 376s going somewhere else? They couldn't just replace/scrap 466s and use 707s to free up more 465 for 12-car running as Charing Cross Platform 1-4 and Woolwich Dockyard are still 10-car limit. Perhaps on Sidcup lines but that makes diagramming a headache?

Maybe some 465s were going elsewhere as a trial or conversion to run alongside 166s (wasn't there rumours about this?)

All a mystery.

There is work going on at Chart Leacon to try and reuse that old site as extra storage, although not from the whole site I believe. This was originally to support getting Thameslink down the Maidstone East line but that seems to be up in the air.

The talk I've heard with regards to supporting 165/166s (Turbos) is that some trailers from old 465 sets will be used to lengthen Turbos as part of a capacity and/or Hydrogen conversion plan.

 

[pompeyfan]

Have any 707s been removed from SWR traffic yet?

 

[4-SUB 4732]

Simulator for the 707 is in at Orpington.

Sounds like they won’t be long...

 

[Domh245]

Simulator for the 707 is in at Orpington.

Sounds like they won’t be long...

I don't think simulators can be used as a reliable guide for entry into service - EMR have got their 810 simulator but won't be receiving any units for at least a year for example...

 

[DorkingMain]

Have any 707s been removed from SWR traffic yet?

None so far. And with the number of short formations / 455s on the Windsor side I've seen recently, I suspect they won't be released immediately.