Class 707 to Southeastern Dates

[ComUtoR]

Please elaborate more on the reasons why not?

Adding to what @py_megapixel has illustrated, even if there was an ex Southeastern Driver there is still the issue of route learning taking place. This new strain has pushed the Southeast into Tier 4 and route learning/cab sharing has come to a grinding halt. Chuck in the complication of two different TOCs working together and having two sets of Covid restrictions and it exacerbates the problem. Also you need to consider the competency management. SWR will need to agree some sort of competency management for a route their company doesn't sign and somone will have to sign it off at SWR.

Then add in more industry complications and issues.. Insurance is problem. All these moves that will need to be done have to go against a TOCs safety case and under their liability. ROGs are train movement "specialists" Pay them the cash (and they are being paid a lot I believe) and let them take all the respobsibility for everything. As it stands the people involved bringing the unit over have the required knowledge for traction and routes and I have no doubt that SE will be on hand to supervise.

Could all this have been done better... For sure, but due to numerous complications this is how it has to happen for the moment.

 

[Aictos]

My assumption would simply be that nobody is in the very specific situation of being a Southeastern driver who signed the eastern section of the route from wherever they are now to Grove Park, and also who has recently transferred to South Western and has been trained on 707s and the western section of the aforementioned route.... that's a very specific set of requirements!

All of these suggestions seem ridiculously overcomplicated to me anyway. It's only a few miles - to me, it seems it would probably be simpler and easier for them just to, y'know, pay to have a locomotive drag it...

Wasn't work done to the Rail Operations Group Locos so they could drag multiple units without needing barrier wagons?

In which case, you could get away with hiring just one loco to drag pairs of the Class 707s away on a weekly basis unless you top and tail it which you would use two locos.

Either way, delivery by rail is far more efficient to do it that way then hiring 10 road transporters.

 

[Chiltern006]

could they get ROG driversto be trained on 707s and take it that way without drag

 

[Recessio]

could they get ROG driversto be trained on 707s and take it that way without drag

What's the point? Far easier to just drag it.

 

[Aictos]

What's the point? Far easier to just drag it.

More easier if the loco concerned doesn't need barrier wagons either plus as ROG seem to specialise in this type of work I can't see why they would want to train up their drivers on a fleet that they won't in the long term be contracted to drive as indeed the poster I quoted rightly said that it be far easier to just drag the Class 707s to their new home with South Eastern.

My only thought is that they be dragged in pairs as I'm sure that how the Class 360s were dragged from Ilford to Cricklewood, I await to be corrected though.

 

[MotCO]

My only thought is that they be dragged in pairs

You mean as 20 car trains, plus translators etc? Would that be too long to traverse some of the junctions it would have to pass through? Then presumably the sidings would not be that long, so some splitting would have to take place, and how would both sections then be moved?

 

[ExRes]

You mean as 20 car trains, plus translators etc? Would that be too long to traverse some of the junctions it would have to pass through? Then presumably the sidings would not be that long, so some splitting would have to take place, and how would both sections then be moved?

While I don't know anything much about 707s I believe that they are all 5 car units, a pair would, therefore, be 10 carriages rather than 20?

 

[Domh245]

You mean as 20 car trains, plus translators etc? Would that be too long to traverse some of the junctions it would have to pass through? Then presumably the sidings would not be that long, so some splitting would have to take place, and how would both sections then be moved?

A pair of 707s would only be 10 cars. ROG drags tend not to have translator/barrier wagons either - it's loco coupled straight to unit unless it's a particularly long train or the unit is completely dead

 

[Aictos]

You mean as 20 car trains, plus translators etc? Would that be too long to traverse some of the junctions it would have to pass through? Then presumably the sidings would not be that long, so some splitting would have to take place, and how would both sections then be moved?

No because the Class 707s are not fixed 10 car formations but rather pairs of 5 car Class 707s that are coupled to work together as a pair.

The most the length would be of it would be loco plus a pair of Class 707s so no more then 11 coaches long, dunno how you came up with 20 car cars? I don't think they used translator/barrier wagons for the transfer of the Class 360s from Ilford to Cricklewood?

Nowhere did I suggest ROG (Rail Operations Group) move formations of plus 20 vehicles.

While I don't know anything much about 707s I believe that they are all 5 car units, a pair would, therefore, be 10 carriages rather than 20?

Yup a Class 707 is formed of 5 coaches so yes the maths is correct.

A pair of 707s would only be 10 cars. ROG drags tend not to have translator/barrier wagons either - it's loco coupled straight to unit unless it's a particularly long train or the unit is completely dead

I thought they dragged without using barrier wagons, thanks for double clarifying tho.

 

[Ladder23]

any units confirmed for the move?

 

[Alteran Ancient]

I do sympathise with the question of "why can't they just get them to Grove Park under their own steam? Why do we have to Diesel haul?", and whilst during "normal times" you could potentially borrow a DI or DM from SWR and one from SE (whilst making sure their existing duties are covered) and co-pilot the 707s on a route across South London towards Grove Park, I just can't see that happening right now, with the risk of being short of crew at short notice and restrictions on who and how many people you can have in the cab. Bespoke movements like this is quite literally Rail Operations Group's reason for being - they'll be able to figure out whether they can hook themselves up via changeover, of if wagons are needed to make it work, and then haul anything and everything from point A to point B without having to fret too much about finding crew with route and stock knowledge.

Just because they can do it, doesn't necessarily mean that they should. Even if I would like to see a 707 make the trip from South West to South East under its own power. Still, it'll be interesting to see them in Kent.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I do sympathise with the question of "why can't they just get them to Grove Park under their own steam? Why do we have to Diesel haul?", and whilst during "normal times" you could potentially borrow a DI or DM from SWR and one from SE (whilst making sure their existing duties are covered) and co-pilot the 707s on a route across South London towards Grove Park, I just can't see that happening right now, with the risk of being short of crew at short notice and restrictions on who and how many people you can have in the cab. Bespoke movements like this is quite literally Rail Operations Group's reason for being - they'll be able to figure out whether they can hook themselves up via changeover, of if wagons are needed to make it work, and then haul anything and everything from point A to point B without having to fret too much about finding crew with route and stock knowledge.

Just because they can do it, doesn't necessarily mean that they should. Even if I would like to see a 707 make the trip from South West to South East under its own power. Still, it'll be interesting to see them in Kent.

I doubt they’ll go properly into Kent without toilets. Just perhaps the outskirts of the county such as Dartford I imagine, with most of the class working the Metro services in Greater London

 

[Geogregor]

I doubt they’ll go properly into Kent without toilets. Just perhaps the outskirts of the county such as Dartford I imagine, with most of the class working the Metro services in Greater London

I still wonder where exactly will they end up... Hayes to Cannon Street might be one of the routes.

 

[londonteacher]

I still wonder where exactly will they end up... Hayes to Cannon Street might be one of the routes.

I would suspect the metro routes to Dartford, loop services and Hayes. With at furthest Gravesend.

 

[brad465]

I doubt they’ll go properly into Kent without toilets. Just perhaps the outskirts of the county such as Dartford I imagine, with most of the class working the Metro services in Greater London

I still wonder where exactly will they end up... Hayes to Cannon Street might be one of the routes.

I would suspect the metro routes to Dartford, loop services and Hayes. With at furthest Gravesend.

Given they're almost identical in terms of existing facilities and formation to 376s, we can pretty much assume for now at least they will do whatever routes 376s can do, which would include all the quoted routes, but probably not anything into Victoria. They can of course have toilets fitted, but given the nature of the operator's future I don't see that happening for the foreseeable future.

 

[Mikey C]

I doubt they’ll go properly into Kent without toilets. Just perhaps the outskirts of the county such as Dartford I imagine, with most of the class working the Metro services in Greater London

But Southeastern already have the non toilet fitted 376s, so that's a sizeable fleet which can't travel past Dartford regularly...

 

[py_megapixel]

But Southeastern already have the non toilet fitted 376s, so that's a sizeable fleet which can't travel past Dartford regularly...

But surely that doesn't matter, as the diagrams can simply be adjusted to take Networkers off the shorter routes in favour of 707s, and then the Networkers can go onto the longer services?

 

[brad465]

But surely that doesn't matter, as the diagrams can simply be adjusted to take Networkers off the shorter routes in favour of 707s, and then the Networkers can go onto the longer services?

I think it would be a combination of that and, as has been speculated here, mothballing some of them, most likely the/some 466s given their lower PRM compliance and lower necessity if 707s and 376s sort of the 10 car needs. They would help increase 12 car Networker formations and possibly also more 8 car formations on Victoria-Rochester/Gillingham/Sheerness services (6 car is the common configuration).

 

[urpert]

Fingers crossed for Hayes... the air conditioning would be quite a major upgrade once it starts getting warm again!

 

[Alteran Ancient]

Given they're almost identical in terms of existing facilities and formation to 376s, we can pretty much assume for now at least they will do whatever routes 376s can do, which would include all the quoted routes, but probably not anything into Victoria. They can of course have toilets fitted, but given the nature of the operator's future I don't see that happening for the foreseeable future.

I've been given the impression that, at least to begin with, they may not be run to Charing Cross. Something about 700s and 707s being "unsuitable" for Platforms 1&2. But that may very well be unsubstantiated hearsay. As for routes that don't require a toilet, I can easily picture them doing Dartford to Victoria, Orpington to Cannon Street, and Hayes to Cannon Street. Indeed, that's more or less most of the diagrams the 376s currently run.

Does that also mean we'll see them doing trials between Bromley North and London Bridge, much in the way the 376s did at the start of their career? Alas, I kid, but that would be very funny.

 

[DA1]

I've been given the impression that, at least to begin with, they may not be run to Charing Cross. Something about 700s and 707s being "unsuitable" for Platforms 1&2. But that may very well be unsubstantiated hearsay. As for routes that don't require a toilet, I can easily picture them doing Dartford to Victoria, Orpington to Cannon Street, and Hayes to Cannon Street. Indeed, that's more or less most of the diagrams the 376s currently run.

Does that also mean we'll see them doing trials between Bromley North and London Bridge, much in the way the 376s did at the start of their career? Alas, I kid, but that would be very funny.

They won’t run on Dartford-Vic or Orpy-Vic due to various platform lengths being 8 car. They can serve Charing Cross as the platform lengths are 11/12 car. So I can see them on all metro services to Charing Cross and all metro services to Cannon Street.

 

[Goldfish62]

They won’t run on Dartford-Vic or Orpy-Vic due to various platform lengths being 8 car. They can serve Charing Cross as the platform lengths are 11/12 car. So I can see them on all metro services to Charing Cross and all metro services to Cannon Street.

I must say it still remains a mystery to me what the actual requirement is. Obviously the deal was done pre-Covid, but there's certainly no case now for additional capacity.

 

[swt_passenger]

I must say it still remains a mystery to me what the actual requirement is. Obviously the deal was done pre-Covid, but there's certainly no case now for additional capacity.

Southeastern and DfT are probably just scanning this thread every few days for best advice on what to do next...

 

[Fincra5]

Southeastern and DfT are probably just scanning this thread every few days for best advice on what to do next...

Hahaha! People seem to forget the infrastructure and rollingstock are planned for the future rather than next week!

 

[DA1]

I must say it still remains a mystery to me what the actual requirement is. Obviously the deal was done pre-Covid, but there's certainly no case now for additional capacity.

These trains will be with Southeastern for many years to come (I imagine) and the additional capacity will no doubt be needed once normality fully returns but that’s for another thread.

 

[londonteacher]

As for routes that don't require a toilet, I can easily picture them doing Dartford to Victoria, Orpington to Cannon Street, and Hayes to Cannon Street. Indeed, that's more or less most of the diagrams the 376s currently run.

The 376s are used on services via Bexleyheath, Woolwich and Sidcup everyday too!

 

[ComUtoR]

I've been given the impression that, at least to begin with, they may not be run to Charing Cross. Something about 700s and 707s being "unsuitable" for Platforms 1&2. But that may very well be unsubstantiated hearsay.

I just read up on the route restrictions for 700s and cant find any reference to Charing Cross. Any idea what "unsuitable" may be ? Cheers.

 

[londonteacher]

I just read up on the route restrictions for 700s and cant find any reference to Charing Cross. Any idea what "unsuitable" may be ? Cheers.

I've been given the impression that, at least to begin with, they may not be run to Charing Cross. Something about 700s and 707s being "unsuitable" for Platforms 1&2. But that may very well be unsubstantiated hearsay. As for routes that don't require a toilet, I can easily picture them doing Dartford to Victoria, Orpington to Cannon Street, and Hayes to Cannon Street. Indeed, that's more or less most of the diagrams the 376s currently run.

Does that also mean we'll see them doing trials between Bromley North and London Bridge, much in the way the 376s did at the start of their career? Alas, I kid, but that would be very funny.

They definitely have visited Charing Cross before - as can be seen in this forum thread: Thameslink Class 700 at Charing Cross | RailUK Forums (railforums.co.uk)

 

[Goldfish62]

These trains will be with Southeastern for many years to come (I imagine) and the additional capacity will no doubt be needed once normality fully returns but that’s for another thread.

It's not going to return - mass commuting as we knew it is dead. But yes, you're correct of course re the 707s being with the operator for potentially many years. If anything they allow early displacement of some Networkers.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

could they get ROG driversto be trained on 707s and take it that way without drag

At least one Kent-based ROG driver does sign 707s. And the entire route...