Class 710 LO

[Peter Sarf]

710 268 on 2N07 this morning from Richmond. First 710 I’ve seen on the North London

You would think they would use a 710/3 (5car) after all it is the North London Line that they were built for !. Five out of six are ready. Only due to be needed once six (qty ?) 378s leave the North London Line for the East London Line.

How soon is the East London Line service increase coming btw ?.

 

[87015]

You would think they would use a 710/3 (5car) after all it is the North London Line that they were built for !. Five out of six are ready. Only due to be needed once six (qty ?) 378s leave the North London Line for the East London Line. How soon is the East London Line service increase coming btw ?.

Given the lack of stabling space, it’s unlikely spare 378s can or have been kept north of the river, and having a 710/2 as the available spare is far more likely than a /3 as it can then cover the T&H top whereas having a /3 as the hot spare doesn’t.

I don’t think the ELL is dated, the London Bridge thread suggests that’s more likely to be first as it doesn’t require the same level of capital spend.

 

[SeaKing]

Is 710270 viewable at Willesden.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Is 710270 viewable at Willesden.

The newest 710 is usually kept in the sidings at Willesden by the DC lines (so other side from the WCML). It is 710270s turn to live there unless it is out on testing (has been as far as Rugby).

Hopefully someone else can come along with less general information like a sighting this morning.

 

[wickham]

There are photos on Flickr (search "Andrew Murdin") of 710270 on night time testing on the West London Line, including at Clapham Junction (!) 12.01.24 and on the North London Line at Kentish Town West and at Stratford 13.01.24: I would not expect any more runs to Rugby/Northampton.

 

[meld3]

270 wasn't there yesterday (17th), and I passed several times during the day.
Frustratingly 379 was parked up there, which is the last one I need for a ride bar 270/374...

 

[Peter Sarf]

270 wasn't there yesterday (17th), and I passed several times during the day.
Frustratingly 379 was parked up there, which is the last one I need for a ride bar 270/374...

You were unlucky with 379 as that has been in use on the Wat-Eus line from my limited observations, probably is (was) a regular !.

 

[185143]

I've not really been following the 710 thread, so apologies if anything's been covered already.

How many units are yet to enter service? And what do the 710/3s do? I need 710268/269/270 for haulage; I've gathered 270 won't happen just yet but what about the other two?

 

[Peter Mugridge]

I've not really been following the 710 thread, so apologies if anything's been covered already.

How many units are yet to enter service?

710 270
710 374

Everything else is in service.

 

[Electrojuniper]

all going well, 710270 will be in service from next weekend from the 27th. All testing / commissioning / Fault free successfully completed

710374 currently moving from Ilford to Willesden Feb 5th.

 

[Peter Sarf]

I've not really been following the 710 thread, so apologies if anything's been covered already.

How many units are yet to enter service? And what do the 710/3s do? I need 710268/269/270 for haulage; I've gathered 270 won't happen just yet but what about the other two?

710270 and 710374 left to go into service.

710/2s work Euston - Watford, Gospel Oak - Barking, a few helping out on services with 710/1 at Liverpool Street and the odd substitution onto the North London Line.

710/3s will end up on the North London line but seem to mainly work Euston - Watford in the meantime

 

[ijmad]

When do you think the 710/3s are likely to fully move to the NLL?

 

[Peter Sarf]

When do you think the 710/3s are likely to fully move to the NLL?

I don't know but it is getting imminent. It depends on the transfer of about 5 378s from the NLL (North London Line) to the ELR (East London Line) for service enhancements there. I think extra capacity on the Crystal Palace branch is the activity awaited. Others know more.

My feeling is that there are not actually six spare 710s (710/3s) currently. The 710/2s seem to be covering some services out of Liverpool Street with 710/3s covering many Euston-Watford services. So I wonder if there is enough capacity in the 710 fleet to cover the transfer of 5 (5 iirc ?) 378s away from the lines Willesden supplies.

 

[wickham]

There was "talk" in the press a few months ago that TFL were looking into running some LOR services off the Crystal Palace/West Croydon routes into London Bridge at Peak Times as a way of easing overcrowding on Southern Services (as a result of their "service reductions"). Would the service enhancements mentioned above be anything to do with this, or are they just additional services over the ELL, assuming there is actually room for them there?.
Regarding the perceived view that LOR do not actually have enough units to cover all current and future requirements, it should not be forgotten that when the order for the 710 stock was first placed there was an option for additional cars and the fleet numbers 710X31 to X55 were left vacent. True, there was a small take up, in that 710274-279 were actually built as 5 car (vice 4 car) and numbered 710374-379, but in doing so the originally ordered 710131 was cancelled. One wonders what all those additional cars were required for and presumably the "option" for additional cars is now expired.

 

[D365]

There was "talk" in the press a few months ago that TFL were looking into running some LOR services off the Crystal Palace/West Croydon routes into London Bridge at Peak Times as a way of easing overcrowding on Southern Services (as a result of their "service reductions"). Would the service enhancements mentioned above be anything to do with this, or are they just additional services over the ELL, assuming there is actually room for them there?.
Regarding the perceived view that LOR do not actually have enough units to cover all current and future requirements, it should not be forgotten that when the order for the 710 stock was first placed there was an option for additional cars and the fleet numbers 710X31 to X55 were left vacent. True, there was a small take up, in that 710274-279 were actually built as 5 car (vice 4 car) and numbered 710374-379, but in doing so the originally ordered 710131 was cancelled. One wonders what all those additional cars were required for and presumably the "option" for additional cars is now expired.

Thanks - I did wonder why the overlap between 378256/257 and 710256/257.

Was 710131 not nominally designated as an additional unit for the Romford-Upminster shuttle?

 

[Electrojuniper]

There was "talk" in the press a few months ago that TFL were looking into running some LOR services off the Crystal Palace/West Croydon routes into London Bridge at Peak Times as a way of easing overcrowding on Southern Services (as a result of their "service reductions"). Would the service enhancements mentioned above be anything to do with this, or are they just additional services over the ELL, assuming there is actually room for them there?.
Regarding the perceived view that LOR do not actually have enough units to cover all current and future requirements, it should not be forgotten that when the order for the 710 stock was first placed there was an option for additional cars and the fleet numbers 710X31 to X55 were left vacent. True, there was a small take up, in that 710274-279 were actually built as 5 car (vice 4 car) and numbered 710374-379, but in doing so the originally ordered 710131 was cancelled. One wonders what all those additional cars were required for and presumably the "option" for additional cars is now expired.

710131 was actually ordered and placed /delivered - as the original order was for 31 AC only units, but an option was exercised to make it a dual voltage unit, so technically that unit is now a /2 unit. I can’t remember which unit was allocated to the 710/2 in lieu of 710131, but I will try to find out.

I don't know but it is getting imminent. It depends on the transfer of about 5 378s from the NLL (North London Line) to the ELR (East London Line) for service enhancements there. I think extra capacity on the Crystal Palace branch is the activity awaited. Others know more.

My feeling is that there are not actually six spare 710s (710/3s) currently. The 710/2s seem to be covering some services out of Liverpool Street with 710/3s covering many Euston-Watford services. So I wonder if there is enough capacity in the 710 fleet to cover the transfer of 5 (5 iirc ?) 378s away from the lines Willesden supplies.

The fleet operation is due to change shortly with some moving around, once mod programs across fleets complete/ conclude. All 5 710/3 units will go on the NLR as needed to release 378’s to ELL. Only subtle changes will be noted.

18tph will be announced in due course, but considering the uplift is not in any 2024 timetable, most likely I would imagine is sometime 2025.

 

[swt_passenger]

710131 was actually ordered and placed /delivered - as the original order was for 31 AC only units, but an option was exercised to make it a dual voltage unit, so technically that unit is now a /2 unit. I can’t remember which unit was allocated to the 710/2 in lieu of 710131, but I will try to find out.

710270 according to a post a few years ago, ie back in 2019 when the change in numbers of subclasses occurred. I noted an ORR document that had added it to the original 14, that’s linked in post #1738

 

[Electrojuniper]

710270 according to a post a few years ago, ie back in 2019 when the change in numbers of subclasses occurred. I noted an ORR document that had added it to the original 17, that’s linked in post #1738

I believe you are correct.

 

[wickham]

Is this why 710270 is so late in coming and has flitted around Derby/Worksop/Ilford (and back !) - it originally being built as AC only and has needed a deal of retrofitting ?

 

[JonathanH]

Is this why 710270 is so late in coming and has flitted around Derby/Worksop/Ilford (and back !) - it originally being built as AC only and has needed a deal of retrofitting ?

I don't think there is any suggestion that 710270 was initially built as 710131.

 

[ijmad]

There was "talk" in the press a few months ago that TFL were looking into running some LOR services off the Crystal Palace/West Croydon routes into London Bridge at Peak Times as a way of easing overcrowding on Southern Services (as a result of their "service reductions"). Would the service enhancements mentioned above be anything to do with this, or are they just additional services over the ELL, assuming there is actually room for them there?.

There's no reason why these would have to run using 378s or 710s, especially given London Bridge post-rebuild can cope with 10 or 12 cars trains in all of its terminal platforms.

The ELL capacity upgrade originates long before the pandemic, the idea is to raise the core frequency from 16tph to 20tph, which would mean an extra 4tph to dole out among the four southern branches. Since West Croydon is near capacity and New Cross trains are lightly used, it was reported by London Reconnections that this would likely mean and increase from 4tph to 6tph to Clapham Junction and the same to Crystal Palace, with all trains still running into Surrey Quays (which is getting major redevelopment and may need more trains) and off to Dalston/H&I.

 

[Peter Sarf]

I don't think there is any suggestion that 710270 was initially built as 710131.

If there is a connection (710231 => 710270) then perhaps just that it was built from scratch as a dual voltage unit but awaiting the parts to make it dual voltage made it come near last.

 

[Geogregor]

There's no reason why these would have to run using 378s or 710s, especially given London Bridge post-rebuild can cope with 10 or 12 cars trains in all of its terminal platforms.

The ELL capacity upgrade originates long before the pandemic, the idea is to raise the core frequency from 16tph to 20tph, which would mean an extra 4tph to dole out among the four southern branches. Since West Croydon is near capacity and New Cross trains are lightly used, it was reported by London Reconnections that this would likely mean and increase from 4tph to 6tph to Clapham Junction and the same to Crystal Palace, with all trains still running into Surrey Quays (which is getting major redevelopment and may need more trains) and off to Dalston/H&I.

They are also doing power supply upgrades. But I'm not sure if they have to be 100% completed before adding services on the ELL.

 

[Electrojuniper]

I don't think there is any suggestion that 710270 was initially built as 710131.

No 710131 was defo not built and then retrofitted. in all honesty we needed one more dual voltage and we varied the build line to build a dual voltage unit rather than a single voltage ac unit.

710270 was definitely a dual voltage unit from the production line

Is this why 710270 is so late in coming and has flitted around Derby/Worksop/Ilford (and back !) - it originally being built as AC only and has needed a deal of retrofitting ?

No awaiting parts to complete it, testing and commissioning of new software and basically was never properly finished. Nothing special happened.

 

[wickham]

710270 seems to have disapeared again of late - does anyone know where it is ? (Possibly inside at Willesden TMD???).

 

[Business Bob]

710270 seems to have disapeared again of late - does anyone know where it is ? (Possibly inside at Willesden TMD???).

I saw it in the Shed, Road 1 on Wednesday

 

[Electrojuniper]

apologies - bit ahead of myself with 270. should now be out early next week. a delay in paper

it is due to enter service and then make its way across to the west anglia network

710374 heading to Willesden still on for the 5th feb.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Thanks @Electrojuniper. It will be useful for many to know where 710270 is because West Anglia is arguably a bit (only a bit) unusual for a 710/2 !.

 

[Kite159]

I presume by West Anglia it's the lines out of Liverpool Street towards Chingford & Cheshunt/Enfield?

 

[Peter Sarf]

I presume by West Anglia it's the lines out of Liverpool Street towards Chingford & Cheshunt/Enfield?

That is my understanding - working with the 710/1s.

As in NOT the 710/2s usual routes Euston/Watford or GospelOak-Barking(-Riverside).
Not even North London Line (not meant to be the 710/2s usual route which is eventually meant for the 710/3s but 710/2s do appear there).