Class 745 Stadler FLIRTs

[Railperf]

What's the rush, get it right first time rather than the rushed bi mode introduction... Where have we ended up there. Currently the 90s still manage a service and can for a few more months.

Yes...there is a strong feeling the 755s were rushed in and not tested extensively enough. Hence the current levels of unreliability.

 

[43096]

They didn't extend the leases for long enough when they placed the order for the new rolling stock. The leases with the new operators were only signed a while after the initial order was made. The rolling stock leasing companies would have been open to have extending the leases for longer as at the time that the order for the FLIRT and Bombardiers was placed there was no work lined up for them or any firm interest in the stock.

Afterwards the ROSCOs started touting the stock out in the knowledge that GA wasn't interesting in extending the lease so the whole argument that GA have been forced into a shortage of stock due to factors completely outside of their control is pure spin since they had the chance to extend the stock but didn't and by the time the issues with the hopelessly optimistic bid timescales were revealed years later, it was too late.

Very easy to sit there and write than on a keyboard with the benefit of hindsight. Rather more difficult to be able to predict the future and see how long you're going to need them for a year or two before the event.

 

[F Great Eastern]

Very easy to sit there and write than on a keyboard with the benefit of hindsight. Rather more difficult to be able to predict the future and see how long you're going to need them for a year or two before the event.

Indeed, it's not a simple job therefore it goes without saying that the people responsible for making the bid with such things would certainly ask people who had been involved in similar projects before for advice and involve their own operations team heavily and hire an experienced engineering director.....

The trouble with this bid it was seemingly hope for the best and if the best doesn't happen, blame bad luck or everything other than yourselves. I'm sure you have seen the big PR drive by Abellio over the past few months which has made some people extremely cynical.

Also, my views are not with the benefit of hindsight, I'm sure if you look really closely, you'll be able to see that I have been saying this kind of thing from almost day one and I'm far from the only one.

 

[rick_suffolk]

010

it is on 0648 NRW-LST this morning

 

[dk1]

it is on 0648 NRW-LST this morning

Yes and the 07:40. Still just 010 & 007 respectively.

 

[hwl]

Indeed, it's not a simple job therefore it goes without saying that the people responsible for making the bid with such things would certainly ask people who had been involved in similar projects before for advice and involve their own operations team heavily and hire an experienced engineering director.....

The trouble with this bid it was seemingly hope for the best and if the best doesn't happen, blame bad luck or everything other than yourselves. I'm sure you have seen the big PR drive by Abellio over the past few months which has made some people extremely cynical.

Also, my views are not with the benefit of hindsight, I'm sure if you look really closely, you'll be able to see that I have been saying this kind of thing from almost day one and I'm far from the only one.

Indeed you weren't the only one, I was also making very similar comments. Technically I think both of us were making the comments from about day -100 when Abellio had won but the current franchise had yet to start and it was still being run under the previous direct award by Abellio.

They had a severe bout of over-optimism and agreed to pay far more premia to DfT than the other bidders as a result, that alone should suggest something wrong.

Their choice of engineering consultants for Brantham was poor, that firms only other previous project not heavily supervised by (competent) others was Croxley rail link and look how that ended up when examined in detail.

They have made significantly higher than expected bad choices for "bad luck" to be a significant cause.

 

[Grumbler]

As indeed you keep grumbling about . With a new fleet provider this was never going to be a quick introduction, Network Rail won’t just let any new train loose on the patch, never mind from a manufacturer they have never dealt with before. Then Crown Point needed rebuilding to maintain them while still trying to run a railway, plus you have had the nonsense of the proposed, now cancelled, maintenance facility at Brantham.

It all makes for a good thesis on how not to introduce new stock, but the naivety of the Abellio bid team, and the DfT for accepting the bid at face value, would be at the heart of the problems. The people now trying to make it all work have been presented with an uphill battle.

Meanwhile quite a few positive comments from passengers on the 19.02 from Liverpool St last night. The 745s do seem to be generally liked so far, so long as they keep going.

It has taken the best part of a year to get these trains into service. Obviously drivers have had to be trained, and there have been modifications, both hardware and software, and presumably these mods have been applied to the whole fleet. So, genuine question - why are only two in in service? Why are most of them sitting in sidings, some getting vandalised?

 

[332 > 444]

As I'm lazy and missed the ex LST 10:00 departure, When is the next London departure and does it call at Stratford?

 

[dk1]

As I'm lazy and missed the ex LST 10:00 departure, When is the next London departure and does it call at Stratford?

14:00, 15:00, 19:02 & 20:00. No Stratford calls either way..

 

[dk1]

It has taken the best part of a year to get these trains into service. Obviously drivers have had to be trained, and there have been modifications, both hardware and software, and presumably these mods have been applied to the whole fleet. So, genuine question - why are only two in in service? Why are most of them sitting in sidings, some getting vandalised?

Because it does. Nothing is as straightforward as it appears.

 

[332 > 444]

14:00, 15:00, 19:02 & 20:00. No Stratford calls either way..

Thank you, I may attempt to get the 14:00 departure.

 

[Grumbler]

Because it does. Nothing is as straightforward as it appears.

Sounds like Parkinson's Law in operation to me.

 

[47421]

Because it does. Nothing is as straightforward as it appears.

Not good enough. Abellio were very full of themselves when they won the franchise, promising all sorts. Now it has gone so wrong their customers deserve honest and realistic information about what they expect to achieve and when. Of course we can't have day by day commentary, and there are probably sensitive legal issues limiting what can be said in public about some situations, but a periodic update on the various promises is not too much to ask for. May 20 was when were were promised '1144 extra services weekly'. When will that, or something like it, happen? No one knows.

 

[dk1]

Not good enough. Abellio were very full of themselves when they won the franchise, promising all sorts. Now it has gone so wrong their customers deserve honest and realistic information about what they expect to achieve and when. Of course we can't have day by day commentary, and there are probably sensitive legal issues limiting what can be said in public about some situations, but a periodic update on the various promises is not too much to ask for. May 20 was when were were promised '1144 extra services weekly'. When will that, or something like it, happen? No one knows.

None of that helps now. We are where we are. Hopefully improvements and introduction will accelerate in the coming months.

 

[dk1]

Sounds like Parkinson's Law in operation to me.

No idea what that means.

 

[captainbigun]

Not good enough. Abellio were very full of themselves when they won the franchise, promising all sorts. Now it has gone so wrong their customers deserve honest and realistic information about what they expect to achieve and when. Of course we can't have day by day commentary, and there are probably sensitive legal issues limiting what can be said in public about some situations, but a periodic update on the various promises is not too much to ask for. May 20 was when were were promised '1144 extra services weekly'. When will that, or something like it, happen? No one knows.

Agreed, Mr Burles seems happy to grandstand at the opening of an envelope. He has been conspicuous by his absence whenever anything has gone wrong.

It was clear 3+ years ago that UK Plc was ill-equipped to commission all of the new stock on order. GA had further challenge to come using a new entrant to the UK in Stadler and Bombardier with the Aventura which was already in difficulty. As said above, a lot of this could and should have been foreseen. GA's bid was clearly over ambitious and the DfT too clueless to critique it.

 

[captainbigun]

None of that helps now. We are where we are. Hopefully improvements and introduction will accelerate in the coming months.

Not so easy to see it that way when you're late for work ad infinitum, missed job interview, funeral etc etc. Not to mention those who pay through the nose and have seen a less than average service presented to them. And it's not just about the new stock, it's the endless short forms and cancellations. I'd say GA are in a pickle.

 

[trebor79]

None of that helps now. We are where we are. Hopefully improvements and introduction will accelerate in the coming months.

Indeed. The 755 introduction started with just a few (was it 3 units) for a few weeks and then they came thick and fast in really quite a short period of time.

Not so easy to see it that way when you're late for work ad infinitum, missed job interview, funeral etc etc. Not to mention those who pay through the nose and have seen a less than average service presented to them. And it's not just about the new stock, it's the endless short forms and cancellations. I'd say GA are in a pickle.

The short forms are a bit of an issue I suppose, but a lot of the cancellations are due to issue outside Thier control, signalling problems, suicides, overrunning possessions etc.
I'd say they are in a pickle, and I also wonder who'd want to run a UK rail franchisee. It appears to have wafer thin margins at the best of times.

 

[blackfive460]

No idea what that means.

"Work expands so as to fill the time available for its completion".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parkinson's_law

 

[dk1]

"Work expands so as to fill the time available for its completion".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parkinson's_law

Cheers ta. I couldn't be bothered to look it up

 

[F Great Eastern]

Just to confirm the slowness of the roll-out of the trains is completely beyond the control of Greater Anglia.

There are not problems with the trains or the performance of the trains, unfortunately signalling issues are the reason that the trains are not being rolled out faster. The signalling issues effecting the network have meant that Greater Anglia have had to put back the introduction of the 745s for reasons beyond their control.

Greater Anglia have recently confirmed that signalling issues are the cause of the roll-out delay.

 

[Tiptreebranch]

Just to confirm the slowness of the roll-out of the trains is completely beyond the control of Greater Anglia.

There are not problems with the trains or the performance of the trains, unfortunately signalling issues are the reason that the trains are not being rolled out faster. The signalling issues effecting the network have meant that Greater Anglia have had to put back the introduction of the 745s for reasons beyond their control.

Greater Anglia have recently confirmed that signalling issues are the cause of the roll-out delay.

I knew there had been signalling issues with the 755s on rural routes, but not involving 745s which purely operate on the main line between Norwich and Liverpool Street.

 

[F Great Eastern]

I knew there had been signalling issues with the 755s on rural routes, but not involving 745s which purely operate on the main line between Norwich and Liverpool Street.

I'm simply just repeating what Greater Anglia say.

They've been saying on twitter and to customers elsewhere that faults with the signalling system are the cause of the delayed roll out of the 745 trains.

 

[DelW]

Not good enough. Abellio were very full of themselves when they won the franchise, promising all sorts. Now it has gone so wrong their customers deserve honest and realistic information about what they expect to achieve and when.

Have any recent franchises delivered on their promises? Down here in SWR land, we have a similar story of non-delivery of new timetables or new / additional rolling stock. Much the same seems to apply at TfW, Northern and Scotrail, to name but three.

None of that helps now. We are where we are. Hopefully improvements and introduction will accelerate in the coming months.

The same "jam tomorrow" that we've heard for so long

 

[LAX54]

I knew there had been signalling issues with the 755s on rural routes, but not involving 745s which purely operate on the main line between Norwich and Liverpool Street.

GA good at spin it seems, as are most ! The 745's apart from one big hiccup have been solid in performance, of course many say Stadler is Swiss excellence, overlooking they were made in Poland, the interiors are Swiss tho

 

[eastdyke]

I'm simply just repeating what Greater Anglia say.
They've been saying on twitter and to customers elsewhere that faults with the signalling system are the cause of the delayed roll out of the 745 trains.

I think that there is a fair argument to be made that the delayed rollout of the 755s did in fact impact moving forward with 745s.
As to the 'total picture' of the reasons for the 755 delays, well another matter entirely.
And I am actually (not) looking forward to next Autumn, and I hope that GA/Stadler are too!

 

[WroxhamTroll]

When GA have a habitual use of spin and blame it's hard to take any excuse seriously. What next more trains than usual requiring repairs despite the fact there are 8 more of them sat in sidings waiting to enter service?

Looking like all being service before end of march is wishful thinking and I presume and extension of the PRM extension?

 

[43096]

Just to confirm the slowness of the roll-out of the trains is completely beyond the control of Greater Anglia.

There are not problems with the trains or the performance of the trains, unfortunately signalling issues are the reason that the trains are not being rolled out faster. The signalling issues effecting the network have meant that Greater Anglia have had to put back the introduction of the 745s for reasons beyond their control.

Greater Anglia have recently confirmed that signalling issues are the cause of the roll-out delay.

It is an entirely logical reason if you stopped the sarcasm and thought about it.

The 755 problems would no doubt have taken up a considerable amount of engineering people in finding the problem and implementing any fix needed on the trains. Those same people would no doubt also be those working on the new train commissioning: so delayed 755 acceptance which then impacts 745 commissioning.

 

[Ecow]

Hi my first run LST NRW on 745 (007) today in first. On time, didn’t need the Stadler laptop person to intervene, though he was sat in first too.
V quick acceleration and easily cruising at 100 per my app.
Was in last carriage and felt some heaves & bumps in the line, well damped but slightly unnerving like driving a sports car on fen roads at speed.
Overall GA deserve thanks for bringing us excellent new trains! Looking firmware to an all 745 service soon.

 

[F Great Eastern]

The 755 problems would no doubt have taken up a considerable amount of engineering people in finding the problem and implementing any fix needed on the trains.

To quote Greater Anglia in the latest edition of their New Trains FAQ
"Our investigation found that the issues were not related in any way with the design and performance of our new trains, which had been running successfully since July."

The constant mantra is there were no problems with the 755s and they have been running fine since July so it's nothing to do with them so how could a problem that didn't exist according to GA cause them problems?

How would you think Greater Anglia define successfully? What would be reasonable?